Jason Barker

Read the full interview

Date of interview: 15th January 2024

Content notes: transphobia, reproductive rights, class, culture wars, institutional power

Listen to the full interview while you read: press the play button or click on the title to open a new tab in SoundCloud

Jet Moon 

Yep. Well, that’s great. And I’m going to just behave myself and say 123 (claps)…as I’ve been told to do (by the sound editor) and that I’m doing an interview with Jason Elvis Barker, it’s Monday the 15th of January 2024. Thanks, Jason. 

Jason Barker  

Why couldn’t I hear the clap you just did? It’s strange, it just went like this.

Jet Moon   

I’m…It’s well beyond my capabilities to answer those kinds of esoteric questions. 

Jason Barker  

Maybe it just cuts off when there’s like a sharp noise like that. It was really funny…it just went like…. it went, you went one two three.

Jet Moon   

Please don’t say any worrying things at the beginning. 

Jason Barker  

No I won’t. I won’t. I won’t. 

Jet Moon   

Anyway. Okay, so, Jason, I think that it’s, um, this first question. I always feel like it’s a bit of a weird thing to say to people, but I will ask you anyway. Because it’s a thing of asking if you feel comfortable in saying how you think survivor writer applies to yourself? And its whatever interpretation you place on that. And for me, it’s really about, you know, yourself as like a creative artist, and a writer, you’re a filmmaker, performer, community organiser, you know, so many different things. But someone who has an element of survivorship in their story. 

Jason Barker  

It’s funny, isn’t it? I was thinking about it. I’ve not been, I have to say, I’ve not been thinking about it too much, and I thought, well, that’s probably better to not sort of…do you know what i mean? Not be dwelling on it and practising answers or anything. 

But I was thinking about this today and I was thinking it was one of those things a bit like, well it’s like lots of things that kind of idea of are you this enough? Or that enough? Are you enough of a thing to call yourself a thing? Are you enough of a writer to call yourself a writer? Are you enough trans to be trans? Are you enough of a survivor to call yourself survivor? It’s like, I think we all do it to ourselves, like there’s some scale, and where we’re mapped on that scale and we position ourselves and we think “oh, yeah, but not compared to….” or “am I taking up something that I shouldn’t be taking up?” do you know what I mean? 

And so I think that was the first thing that I thought of when I read it. And then I was thinking about this thing about well it’s funny, and often these things kind of,  I mean, in my experience, not get solved, but can be helped when somebody else says something about us. And then we, we kind of think, “oh, yeah, that….” I’ve got this sort of validation from outside, it’s very difficult to do it for yourself.

But…So a friend of mine was talking about a book that she’s reading Romesh Ranganathan’s book and she said she said, “I was reading his book and he reminded me of you”. Because she said, “he’s in this kind of world of TV, and doesn’t know anyone from TV and is trying to sort of navigate it”. And I was really pleased because I thought, “yes, thank you”. Because I sometimes think that I’m in that world, or part of that world, of which I’m not sort of….it’s not like, I’ve got family members who are ever from that world. So I suppose that was an example where I felt quite pleased. Somebody had seen something or thought “oh, yeah, look, that’s like you”. So I suppose with that, it…it sort of….I don’t know that that’s a word that I would use for myself but when I think about myself in relation to it, I can definitely see how it would apply to some things about me for sure. I mean, I suppose thinking on a loose way, I think there are certain things in my life that have presented as barriers, that now at age 52, I can look back on and draw on creatively. So that to me feels like a kind of…you know, that there’s…yeah, hopefully that makes some sense. 

Jet Moon   

I mean, I think it’s interesting that thing about like the internal gatekeeping of who belongs to what, but also, on the plus side of it, I’ve had some really great experiences where I don’t have to explain, or I don’t have to justify, and I have had this conversation with people where we talk about visibility and like with some people, things seem glaringly obvious when you’re together, it’s like “well, of course!” And to other people they are completely…they have no awareness of those things at all. It’s not part of their experience or their identity. 

Well, I wanted to go a bit into ancient history, you know, because I think like lots of people I know – and the people that I’ve chosen to interview – it’s not…we’re not just like this “oh, you’re a writer”, but you have a broad range of actions and disciplines that you’ve accrued over the years, you’ve run clubs and you’ve told me some hilarious stories about doing…being a drag king. And with that, I did kind of want to go back to that and just talk about, you know, the way-back days before Trans Fabulous – which we’ll go into -do you want to talk about, like, what the cultural surround was like, back then?

Jason Barker  

I suppose I moved to London in 1994. And I mean…I’m quite…I feel like very late coming out as anything as I would have been 23. For some reason, I see that now as being incredibly old, I had erm this…and it’s really hard to even say a secret….I’ve honestly…. I’m….the reason why I’m struggling with language is because I had and I can’t… I mean partner seems like a really funny description for a kind of teenage romance, do you know what i mean? Partner seems very grown up for what we were…a shag, a shag person. But basically, we were these two people who got together and we both transitioned. So he, as he was, and me as…as I am and, and so our kind of history, though, it was quite interesting, in that we were at the time, we were each other’s first girlfriend and we were like in this little village, and we found each other and, you know, so this….I didn’t…but it was very secret, it was incredibly secret. 

It was like secret for about two years. And it was secret before I moved to London. And we really felt that nobody could possibly know this. So I’m always kind of in awe of stories of people who kind of came out at 16 and things. And I was very, very repressed and very fearful of all of that. And so it wasn’t until I moved to London, and yeah, it would have be 1994, which I found overwhelming. I remember just being sort of overwhelmed by that kind of, you know, there are people like me, you know, that sort of, yeah, just people around people, you know,..

And I’ve got a nice photograph of myself, actually, somewhere with…I was working in restaurants at the time, I used to work on these…this is too much information, I’m sure…but basically, there were these quite fancy private functions and I had…I’m wearing…and I’m travelling to one of these fancy private functions in the uniform, which was this kind of white shirt and tie and black trousers in a very high apron, you know, kind of waiters apron, and I’ve got my hair is like, you know, it’s a quarter of an inch, and it’s bleached. And I think I’ve got my tongue pierced, and I just think I am the business. I’m on the tube and I’m like, hanging on to the rail and like laughing and, and I just look at it and it’s that moment, those times when you just kind of, you know, you feel that invincible. 

And also I suppose this that thing isn’t there about being queer when things sometimes happen later for us…can do so there was me at 24 but actually, I’m probably like, as a kind of…maybe behaving like, you know, a 16 year old at that point, you know, in a kind of late to catch up way. But anyway: so I’ve moved to London, and started, yeah, started work doing drag king stuff. I mean, it’s quite a…it’s probably too complex. It’s not it’s not too complex a story, but it’s just, Yes, Jet.

Jet Moon   

Well, to me from the things that you’ve told me it sounded like you were also pushing back against a certain kind of drag king that other people were doing maybe.

Jason Barker  

So: I maybe was. I was really interested in…well, what I really… I think in my life, I think I’ve often done a thing that’s close to the thing that I really want to be doing, but not done the thing that I really want to be doing, do you know what I mean? So I think I’ve often positioned myself adjacent to…so for instance, film festival programming, when I really want to be the filmmaker, but I’m sort of paid to be doing the thing near to the thing that I want to be doing. So I’ve often sort of…so with drag king stuff, I think what I really wanted to do was stand-up comedy. And I think where I was always putting things was into these kinds of different areas that weren’t quite that…anyway, but the drag king thing, I really enjoyed it, I enjoyed the dressing up and I enjoyed… I just sort of make these kinds of these characters these geezers there’s, you know, I mean, At the time, my gosh, the pickings of 1990s London secondhand shops, you know, charity shops, you’d never find that stuff now, you could just get anything but anyway, yes. 

Jet Moon   

Yeah, well, I just wondered if there was like a name or a character that you could describe of your…

Jason Barker  

I mean, I don’t know that…it was not really so thought out because we… I was running a weekly club on a Monday that hardly anyone went to. And so the pressure was on to have a different look every week. And so I would, I would often be based on what I could find or what I was going to, you know…. so there was a lot of…but um, yeah

Jet Moon   

What was the club called?

Jason Barker  

The club had different names…the club started out not being a drag king club at all. It was quite a…it was like a fashion club. It was a fashion club called Naive and that was my next-door neighbor’s club really, it wasn’t my club at all. And drag kings were a part of that because I’d entered a drag king contest at the, as it was called, at the time, the London Lesbian and Gay Film Festival and so yeah, it was quite convoluted. So drag kings were never supposed to be the club but I’d been on the flyer for the club and my next door neighbour soon realised that there was quite a lot of press to be had, you know, this drag king club and the UK’s first drag king club. So it shifted from being this kind of fashion club to being a drag king club. 

And he stopped being part of it and I took over, and then it changed. It had various names. It was…I mean, the disaster of it really, was just that I had no…I mean, I lost so much money, and I never made any money. And it was…I mean, it was ridiculous, because I didn’t have any, any capital. And I remember you know, quite fair enough performers would want to get paid, but people wouldn’t come through the door. And the thought of this makes my heart race now, because I can’t imagine put myself in such a ridiculous position. But you know, that thing of just being like “I don’t know what to do”. Because I hadn’t figured on “what…what should I do if nobody comes? How do I…” You know, do you know what I mean? Not having that kind of…a lot of it was done on a sort of a hope. 

Jet Moon   

And where was it? Where was it located?

Jason Barker  

It was first at a club called Maximus in Leicester Square. That was the fashion club’s origins. Then we moved to Madame JoJo’s in Soho. But there was…there was always a lot, I mean, there was a lot of expenses in running a club and I have no business sense, like I really don’t. And I think this is something…I’m not good at that kind of, you know, how much do you need to make in order to make something you know, I think you learn, but at the time, I just didn’t…I honestly, I just went for it….I just went for it thinking, “Right what we need to do is get 100 people coming in, and then I can pay everybody. Right, come on a hundred people”. And then it would be like, “Oh no! Monday night, surprise!” Nobody…y’know very few people were there. So…yeah, there was a lot of disaster to it. I mean, I’m thinking of it. Now. I feel quite stressed by it. But it was one of those things. I think doing that kind of thing when you’re younger, you know?

Jet Moon 

I’m just laughing because I’m just thinking of how many times I’ve performed on a Wednesday night, not at your club, and absolutely not being paid or…whatever night of the week or something. We’ve all done many, many shows and got like not a brass razoo. Were you…you mentioned like that you…you know, this adjacent thing “I wanted to be doing this, so I did drag kinging”. Were you writing anything for stand up at the time? 

Jason Barker  

No, not really. I just honestly….I mean, I’m…I really… I suppose I try…I try not to look back and because there’s no point and berate my former self for not doing a thing, that now I think  “Oh, why didn’t you?” You know, I try not to do that because it’s, it goes nowhere, you know, that kind of like “why didn’t I do this or why didn’t I do that?” I mean, I can kind of think why I didn’t do stand up. I wasn’t writing stuff, but I can think why I didn’t It’s because…I mean really the idea of going to…I couldn’t…I couldn’t imagine myself in a… you know, in some comedy club. I just didn’t think that was gonna…I just couldn’t see it. I mean, I think it wasn’t until doing things like Trans Fabulous…a lot of that was about making a sort of arena really for myself to be able to do stuff on stage, I think.

You know the daft thing about this, and again, I know I sound like I’m all kind of you know finally learning things, but it’s like I sometimes get this about the writing that I’m doing now is I think…like occasionally I get like this internal critic voice saying “Who do you think you are? You’re too old How dare you call yourself like, an emerging writer, at your age? Surely you should have emerged now? How could you possibly be new? What do you have to say when you’re so old?” Or you know all of these things that are really mean, mean thoughts and then I think about it, and I think well, you know, but why not? And also, like, why can’t…you know, I just have to really unpick all of those thoughts. But I definitely, I think, when I was younger, I definitely sort of would believe all of that, I would apply it to me, I’d be like “if I can’t see a person like me doing any of the things that I want to do, then that is an impossibility and cannot be done”, rather than thinking “Oh, okay, I’ll be that person”…that would be a very sort of noble thing to do. But I just think “Oh, that’s not …you know that that won’t be for me…

Jet Moon   

Yeah, I mean, I think that those…as I hear you sort of like “oh, you know, why didn’t…”you know, you’re putting yourself down a bit by… that’s how it sounds to me. Whereas I can think that I have actually done some really incredibly destructive things in my life because I believed that I couldn’t do the creative things that I wanted to do, like, I actually believed it. And I also didn’t have any of those…I had no surround of anyone who was doing anything like that, and never, never seen anything like that. So I don’t know….but I think your…your answer, you know, where the place you came to about it was really interesting. And I thought, “yeah, let’s talk about Trans Fabulous” because I think of it as quite a golden time.

Jason Barker  

In many ways, I would agree with you. I mean, I think the great thing about that time, was like…it’s really hard, isn’t it, like visibility is such a double-edged thing. You know, on the one hand, you make things visible, and it opens up possibilities. On the other hand, part for me about the golden time of those years was that we were all under the radar. No one saw us, no one cared, no one knew what we were doing. So, on the frustrating thing was sometimes this idea that we were like, you know, there was this ceiling we could never break through. But also did we really ever want to break through it? How liberating and freeing to be in this space where you’re just performing. So going back to the comedy thing, I remember. 

Jet Moon   

One thing I just want to say is that just really just to give a bit of a thing that we’re talking about Trans Fabulous: Transgender Festival of the Arts, and that would have run, is it…gosh, tell me the years Jason.

Jason Barker  

200-….I think we started doing stuff in 2003 until 2006, something like that. It was kind of like mid/early 2000s.

Jet Moon   

Yep and just to say, you know, like, that is a festival taking place in East London, I think it…you know, Oxford House, probably at capacity in this theatre there of around about 200 people, I think, is that right? Maybe

Jason Barker  

Maybe slightly… I mean, I see I have the number 120 in my head. It was small, basically, it was not a big place.

Jet Moon   

Yeah, you know, and you know, yourself and Serge creating a program where you’re inviting local and international artists, there’s film screenings, there were performances from lots and lots of different people. Like I remember….oh, gosh, like, I mean, obviously, Kate Bornstein, Ignacio Riviera. Um, I’m trying to think of what the…is it the Trans Men’s Voice… 

Jason Barker  

Oh. Voice Choir, yeah!

Jet Moon   

They were amazing! Um, gosh, I mean, you know, like, obviously genderqueer playhouse, Queer Belgrade came but I think also, like, there was a lot of real, local, local and, and I wonder if you…. I wanted to like talk about “The Menstrual Cycle” like your performance there and also Moobs but I wonder if you want to say anything more about you know, that description of the festival? 

Jason Barker  

Yeah I mean, I think again…it isn’t really, I mean, that kind of running things that sort of….it’s not what I’m, I don’t do that stuff anymore. It’s not what I…it’s not my skill set, really it isn’t. I mean, it was…it was good to do something to get something going really. But…you know, so I remember that a bit like running the club as well. It stresses me, the idea of it. I mean, I’m just…I think I’m not very I’m not strategic. That’s probably what it is. And that was probably the case with the club as well, I don’t have that kind of mind that can think “Hmmm but I better watch out for this because…” you know, I don’t think I’m very good at that. 

So it was very kind of…..but that’s all the negativity. It was….yeah, it was, it was good. I mean, I do… it’s funny, because that time was also…it’s so bound up with doing a job that I really hated and doing a job that I really hated in order to raise money for fertility treatment that didn’t work. So there’s a really…it’s really hard isn’t it to sort of separate bits, strands of your life and be able to talk about one bit without the kind of…. so at the time I was working in that horrible…I do remember it just being a horrible office job, this horrible…like that horrible sales job. And I did that for about eight years.

 And when I think about kind of, kind of career pictures…I mean, I’m frustrated with myself, because I feel like…it was like a kind of erm… the fertility treatment was like a treadmill that I couldn’t get off that we couldn’t get off, because we were just kind of….all money was going into paying for these treatments for these procedures, etc, etc, which weren’t working. And so that time, it’s just really odd. I mean sometimes…sometimes if I lie awake at night, I try, I find myself…actually it’s worst thing to think about. but I do a kind of like “What was I doing?” I think “what was I doing in my 30s? What happened to my 30s?” And then I start thinking: “well, there’s a good thing is that I was doing Trans Fabulous. That’s a good thing.

 And by 38, I was pregnant, so that’s a good thing. And I met loads of people in my 30s and that’s brilliant. And I had lots of sex in my 30s, so that’s brilliant”. So there was a lot of like good stuff happening. But then I think “why haven’t…why why haven’t I got like….” I mean I’ve got a career, but not a kind of, you know, a career career. And I think that’s because of my 30s. I wish like…I dunno. I know I was saying… I try not to say “I wish I’d…” but there we are I wish I had…and I didn’t. So there’s a lot about that time…Transfabulous….that was a really….it was a golden time. It’s a golden time in what was also tricky times, I think for me in my 30s and  sort of, you know, difficult kind of… like, it’s that thing of when you’re wanting something to happen so much. it’s very hard to be in the moment with it. You’re kind of like always, either in the…in the future, a future that you’re hoping for, or…

Jet Moon   

Mmm yeah, I mean, I think that one of the neglected forms…. when I say “Oh, what are you writing? You know, and it’s the thing that I think is constantly…for myself dismissed as not part of the writing is all the admin that I do. The millions of emails I write, the thousands of fucking spreadsheets that I can’t read and need help with, the funding applications that take months and months and also get knocked back continually and fail and do or don’t get money, but which sucks so much creative energy out, you know, and I know that one of the things that you described to me at that time was how much time you spent crouched over a spreadsheet.

Jason Barker  

Yeah, yeah, it’s a lot, isn’t it? All of that stuff. It is a lot. It is a lot. And I think it’s got…yeah, it kind of, it’s a real balancing act. When it tips, you know, it has to sort of…the payoff of doing all of that has to be really good. And when it tips it’s not, you can’t do it. It’s not sustainable.

Jet Moon   

Yeah I mean, I think it’s really hard. But I think also at that time, I don’t think and I don’t know if I have been in a space previously or after, you know…I don’t think that I can think that there was a space where I saw other trans or gender non-conforming or, you know, people in the same space in this way, it’s just not happened and it felt like it just coalesced….it just was like this magic thing that all went once and then suddenly, we all…people all saw each other.

Jason Barker  

Yeah, I mean, I…I’d seen bits of it in the Trans Film Festival that was running before Trans Fabulous and it seemed like we could only get one thing at a time. And, of course, that’s all changed now. It’s 20 years on and everything’s like…you know, there’s a lot going on, which is brilliant. But yeah, at the time. I think it’s, you know, something that needs to happen. 

And as far as writing at the time now, I was loathe to write. I used to sort of… again, I think that this was a kind of…I don’t know… in a way, I think that it took me until relatively recently to actually commit to writing things down as a sort of like…commit to treating things seriously even if they’re not serious. You know, even if it’s a comedy performance, there’s something about treating it as a serious thing, like treating it with respect. 

And I think before then, I quite liked… and it’s funny, I see this, …. (redacted section) I think I had that until I was in my mid 40s. This kind of trying, like putting an effort in. And what I would like to do is be the kind of like…. the person that didn’t need to try or the person that hadn’t tried but was…I’ll tell you what, I wrote something on Facebook, and people were asking what did I mean by Louis Walsh. And Louis Walsh, it was this right: so Louis Walsh on X Factor, sometimes people would sing, and Louis Walsh would say “and the best thing about you is, you don’t know how good you are”. So the person had come, seemingly, like didn’t even know that they could, like didn’t even know they could sing, just give it a go and turns out to be brilliant, right? And that in my head is like the kind of the very best, that’s like the number one way of being and like, below that, is the person – like the worst way of being – is the person who really tries but actually isn’t very good. And that also used to happen in X Factor. Sometimes people would be…sometimes people would be penalised for having too many lessons or for trying too hard. So it’s a it’s a funny kind of balance. But that kind of…I like the idea of it being this, you know, being this person that was just I don’t know…

Jet Moon   

A mythology! 

Jason Barker  

Yeah!

Jet Moon   

A mythology. And in fact, I mean, there is nobody who does that, non-existent.

Jason Barker  

There’s nobody, and not even that I was doing it but there’s something about that kind of…about that mythology that… I suppose it just, you know, it’s quite there. I mean, I’ve obviously…I’ve moved out of this mythology now. But there we go, it stuck with me, I think particularly around the idea of comedy and the idea of being funny, that that was something that your kind of, you know, that was either spontaneous or not. But because… in reality, I remember the first time I met a professional comedian, and, you know, I found it odd, the, you know, the fact that they weren’t funny to talk to. And, you know, I met this guy, and he would keep this notebook. And if anyone said anything he’d like get out this little book and write down notes. I just found it really odd, this kind of taking of things. It’s just how it is. But there we go so…

Jet Moon   

I mean, it’s funny, isn’t it? Because I’ve come offstage before and someone said to me, actually, quite rudely, they were like “Oh, you’re barely even recognisable from how you are on stage”. It’s like “well, it’s called performing.” Because they thought I was very quiet, I was quite quiet…and just not my…you know, cuz obviously, I have to perform a character on stage who is apparently myself. But some people, you know, think that that’s you. 

I want to talk about the Menstrual Cycle performance at trans fab, because I just remember…written or not, I thought it was very funny. That you came out, you know, dressed in this costume, the uterus with the fallopian tubes and the balloon ovaries and, on the cycle like, you know, so it was this mass of punning going on, as well. And,…the thing that I remember you saying in the performance, you know, obviously, it’s called “The Menstrual Cycle” you’re performing at Trans Fabulous and you spoke, you said something at the opening “Well, you know, trans people are nerds”, you know, and it was this joke about trans people. But it was also kind of serious in a way because you’re talking about this thing where people have to become experts. They have to learn and research a lot, because they can’t rely to get that information from elsewhere, and they have to advocate. 

And I thought that the way that you did this through comedy, and spoke about this was…I mean, it was really funny, but it was also serious. Do you want to talk about the show?

Jason Barker  

I mean, it was really important for me anyway, because at the time…at the time, I was going through fertility treatments, so I was having periods, and I’d come off testosterone, having not really even been on it for very long at all. But you know, it, it’s a very self-centered thing about…I don’t know – I don’t think it’s just about being trans – …but for me about being trans, very self-centered is that, you know, I always had a very elevated idea of how much attention people paid to my transition. Do you know what I mean? So I was quite sort of preoccupied with the idea of “oh, you know, I’m doing this thing called Trans Fabulous, and people will see that I’m not taking testosterone because they’ll just know, because everyone will be, like, so obsessed with my hairline? They’ll know, they’ll…”

Jet Moon   

You won’t be allowed into your own festival.  

Jason Barker

Exactly and that people will want…people will demand answers: “Why is this person…” you know, it’s just that kind of real, real self-obsession… anyway. So, it felt like very, you know, I felt like doing something that acknowledged that, so acknowledged periods. 

But so, it was…I mean… that is funny that that Menstrual Cycle, because that comes back (to) that uterus, in that it’s sort of.. I mean, it came back when, my film was released. ( Film: A Deal With The Universe) And there was this silly thing that they’d asked me to do for The Guardian, which was ‘My favourite outfit.’ Oh, it’s just, you know, it’s just that when people are doing…when people are doing publicity for films, there’s like, all these different opportunities that they will send you…like opportunities to talk about the film, basically. And it could be anything that anyone wants, like somebody talking about something and you also mention the film. And so, it was this column in the Guardian at the time called “My Favourite Outfit”, and they said “Would you do ‘My Favourite Outfit'”? And I said, I would. And I spoke about the uterus costume in the “My Favourite Outfit”. Well, that was just…I mean, and it was funny. But it was also a nice thing to do, I thought – well, it was – because Lucas McKenna who made the uterus outfit had then died. And it was really nice to be able to sort of like, have his name in something and his…oh it’s nice his mum wrote to me and said it was just really nice that he’s sort of like… you know, can be found on Google and connected with…so it was good. 

But it was just a really funny I mean, I don’t know, I find it quite funny in that, of anything I’ve done, that seems to have been like….that caused a big kind of online controversy of which, I know they say ‘don’t read the comments’ but seriously, that article. So many people: “uh you dress like your uterus because you’re a woman!” Which doesn’t even make any sense, if women were all walking down the street dressed as uteruses. 

Jet Moon

Just looking out my window now and I am noticing hundreds of women dressed as uteruses out there. 

Jason Barker  

But also this idea that I’d somehow not realised. That I’d not realised that, that I’m sort of…that I was dressed as a uterus being like “yeah, I’m a man dressed as uterus” which I was never doing. So it’s just like…it was just ridiculous. But also, it stays with me, that uterus thing in that I’m writing at the moment – so I’m writing my feature film: a narrative version based on the story of ‘Deal With The Universe’, but very loosely based – and it’s, I don’t know, it’s just funny. 

And if I say it will sound really incredibly obvious, but I think that’s often the way with writing, isn’t it? It’s the thing that…the place that you come to after an awful lot of work… is a place that seems like it was incredibly obvious all the way along. If you see what I mean? That’s been my experience.

So in finding a title for this feature film, and we had to…you always had to find titles really quickly. We were applying for a pot of funding for development and we needed a good title. We came up with “Mr. Uterus” and we came up with “Mr. Uterus” right and…. but I’m not even saying “Mr. Uterus” at that point in any connection with the uterus costume. It was just this idea of Mr. Uterus. 

Then I was putting together also for another funding thing, I was putting together a kind of a book or a sort of PDF with some images. And one of the images I chose was me wearing the uterus costume. And…that doesn’t feature in the film, but I was using it in a kind of like, you know…I think I was using it to say “Oh, look, this is my own story here is me dressed as a uterus”. And so all of these things were kind of pushing me towards the, you know…why isn’t the uterus costume in your film? You know what I mean? And it’s…I’ve just been writing a draft now and of course, it’s there. It should have always been there and it is there. So it’s um…so the idea and “The Menstrual Cycle” and the uterus it kind of….it will live again.

Jet Moon   

Amazing. Like, I want to nip back slightly, because, um, ages ago I stayed at your place and “The Argonauts”….What’s her name? Maggie? Maggie’s Nelson’s book had not long come out. And you said to me “oh Jet you know, you must read The Argonauts. I think you’ll like it”. And I don’t even know what the fuck was going on with me but for some reason, I picked up the Argonauts and I read a bit of and I got into like the snit about something about it.. and put it down and didn’t read it. 

And here we are, what, 10 years at least later and I think of Trans Fabulous, you know, and I think of how at that time, you know, Press For Change had just won some kind of like legal precedent, different things were happening. And I think that, at least myself, felt that our rights were going to continue to progress forward. I was in that that naive place in the world, you know. And I recently did read “The Argonauts” and it was so curious to me that it didn’t feel like the text had aged because our rights hadn’t changed; they actually rolled back significantly… mmm.

Jason Barker  

 Nelson? Yeah, yeah. No, that’s, that’s really interesting observation. I don’t know if I would…I actually. I haven’t looked at the book for so long so I’m not sure if I would still be like “yeah!” But no, it’s curious. 

So this…writing in this fictional version of my story, there’s a lot that’s very different, but it’s set around that time of Trans Fabulous. So there’s a club in it but the character who’s based on me is not running the club. The character is based on me as a performer at the club, as opposed to the person running the club. And the person running the club is a much more sort of progressive and cool genderqueer person, who the character is based on me is obviously very jealous of and measures himself against. 

But why that time is interesting and why I wanted to write about that time – because actually, I could have taken the story and made it anytime -but I really wanted to tell a story about that time; because that time marked to me a kind of a change…. So it was the Gender Recognition act of 2004 but I remember, we all took the piss out of it. And you know, we all took the piss out of it, we were all like “well, I’m.. you know, I don’t care about it”, which you know, most people don’t. I think there’s still less than 7000 people have gone through the process in 20 years. So we all took the piss out of it but now, it’s like “I don’t want it taken away” and it’s become this symbol. 

But also, I think there was a change in how we saw ourselves as a community, how we thought about being trans. And so I’m kind of writing about that through a character. And I’m saying based on me, but this isn’t actually, I mean, it’s the process, I think that it’s become this guy that…anyway, I’m writing about a character who starts out wishing he wasn’t trans, and ends up being really glad that he’s trans, who starts out thinking that trans is a curse, and ends up thinking that being trans is a blessing. He kind of moves through a sort of…from trans being like your worst secret, and nobody must know, to trans being something that you dress as a uterus, and you go out and you talk about. 

And in his case, in my story, in a very public way, but it’s a kind of…yeah, so it’s an interesting time for that; in that I think that there was a shift in…a shift in how we thought about ourselves and the kind of knock-on effects to where we’ve got now. You know, the seeds of that were, were there.

And I think there’s an inevitability about it, you know, because we started making…it’s not that we were making this kind of great political strides. But I think, as a community, we were changing. We were changing how we thought about ourselves, who were…just a sort of different sense of, dare I say the word “Pride”, you know, that walking on pride, being part of the trans group on Pride and feeling like “yeah, I can stand with this. And this is a word that I’ll use about myself”.

Jet Moon   

I think purely the thing is also to be able to hear a variety of stories from other people, to see each other, to have a space of celebration and I think it was huge. 

And, um, I mean, I think of kind of what’s changed, because I don’t think that anyone was particularly using this, the terminology “nonbinary”, you know, which has become hugely known, um, err and so obviously, like things have changed in quite a mainstream sense; in terms of perhaps how people might think about their gender or have a bit more language. But at the same time, we’ve had a massive swing to the right. And repression and persecution of trans people has become a political platform. 

Jason Barker  

But changes in language is really interesting as well. I mean, just in that, like not having words like “non-binary”. It’s quite funny when people think that because you didn’t have the language that the thing didn’t exist.

Like people always apply….I mean, I’m saying “people” in a very vague way, but you know, it’s like…yeah, that….I suppose we used words like “genderqueer” because we used it in our ‘Genderqueer Playhouse’ (performance and film), we used “trans” in a very loose way 20 years ago, for sure. But yeah, the word “non -binary” I don’t think I’d heard it…I don’t think I’d heard it. And now it’s so sort of…yeah, it’s just interesting as well, that kind of… I didn’t know how to…I suppose it actually comes back to that first question as well thinking about “Are you this enough? Are you that enough?” When…you know, there’s a point about claiming language or saying, ‘this is what I am’, which…I feel…I don’t want to say…it just feels less important to me. I would say, now, you know, the language that I use to describe myself feels less important. It’s something that only really comes up on those tick box forms when you apply for things: “Do you describe yourself as this? Or do you describe yourself as other, specify” You know, those kinds of things.

Jet Moon   

I wonder if we could, like, just flit back and just talk about “A Deal With The Universe” a little bit, because we kind of like jumped over it. 

So you did make this film that “A Deal with the Universe”, you know, using a lot of material that you had collated over years and years and years about your own journey, you know, attempting to get pregnant, have a child. And at the time, I think I don’t….I wonder about the writing process, because I remember you saying something to me about “oh, how do you decide about how much of your…sorry about that…your personal information do you reveal?” And I said something about…that yeah, you know, I write a lot of really, really personal stuff, but I make decisions, I reveal what I want to reveal. 

And I wonder how,…I know that through the course of that pregnancy as well, it felt like, you…a lot of things about how you related with yourself and spoke about yourself or how at ease, felt like it shifted? 

Jason Barker

No it’s a really interesting one, like, what do we reveal and what do we not? I’ve got um… it’s like, I realise, you don’t have to tell people, everything about yourself, in order to have some sort of…a bit of truth in there. 

I mean…so thinking about “Deal with the Universe”, it was telling a very specific story. And even though I had lots of archive footage, I didn’t really have that much, you know, not like an infinite amount. And so that already shaped the story. Like nothing really, of when I was pregnant, which is really… so the whole story had to be sort of shaped around the fact there’s a big chunk of this that you might,…anyone might quite rightly be expecting to see and you’re not going to see anything. Also everything being very kind of insular, as well. Because I, you know, I’m not somebody who would like take the camera into a doctor’s surgery, you know, it’s not like that. I wouldn’t…I wouldn’t have felt comfortable doing that. So it’s…so there were some limits to it. 

But also, you know, thinking about what needs to be told. In order to tell that particular story, is not every single thing about me and what was going on at the time. And I think that was the thing. To start with it could be anything, and then you know, the process of editing really is: you’re choosing, you’re choosing, you’re choosing, you’re choosing, until you’re kind of, until things have got shape. And then it would seem quite odd to bring in something from here, because you’ve already made decisions that have kind of…telling a particular story. Not the everything story. 

I think that was…I mean, the reason why I say that, and the reason why I sort of think about that is that there were very big things happening in my life that are not in the film. The film is telling a particular story about me and Tracy trying to have a baby. But it’s not telling a story about lots of other people who featured in my life. It’s not a kind of…it’s not the story of everything. And I think that’s, yeah, that was quite a sort of…it could have been the story of anything and then as I made decisions, it became this very specific story.

Jet Moon   

That sounds like even though we’re talking about a visual art form, and I do believe that there is, you know, writing involved in that; that it’s the process of editing. 

Jason Barker  

Yeah, and that’s it. So it’s, it’s editing all the way and in that very much editing. And that you’ve got like a box of tapes and then it’s the act of editing, is creating the story. But of course, also, what I’m learning now is all of my writing is editing, so it’s the same process. So yes, I would say it was kind of writing with the material, it’s the same processes as writing on the page… yeah, for sure.

Jet Moon   

I feel like editing is another hugely neglected piece of writing: where somehow there’s the assumption that people are just like banging out these novels, film scripts, poems, like “yeah I did that today!” 

Jason Barker  

Well, it’s funny, because I think…so when I was at school, say, actually, when I was 13. When I was at school, I remember writing stories, and I remember…the English class might be a one hour, and then you would be set some title and then you would write and you would write something within that time. I mean, the thought of this now! You’d write and you’d set off writing, and then…but you’d never…there was no process of editing to it, it was just like, beginning. And now, you know, you’d be told, “you’ve got two more minutes”, or you know, or the bell would go: the end. And it would never be…you’d never go back to it. 

And I think, to a certain extent, that probably stuck with me, that experience probably stuck with me for way longer than it should have done. And going alongside that kind of idea of the, like, not having to try the instant success, the not knowing, you know…

So now what I find is that, that editing…I mean, so I’ve been doing that…I did that BBC course last year, and the guy who I was working with, he said, or his sort of advice, generally, is “write it even if it’s shit, because you can edit shit, you can’t edit nothing”. You know, and it’s absolutely true and it’s very liberating as well, just this idea that, you know, you can. You need the thing to be able to change the thing, but without the thing there isn’t…(anything to work with) You know, it’s just like, “Oh! that is simple”, but made all the difference. 

Jet Moon  

And is completely the opposite to the sudden birth of a great talent.

Jason Barker  

Exactly. And that mythology, though, it does kind of, I mean, it really…it, it goes deep that mythology, because I think it’s everywhere, that idea of like… the idea of this kind of ‘the talent’, this kind of… you know…divine talent that could just manifest and do these things. The idea of not having to try, the idea of the instant success, the- all of these things, you know, and none of them in my experience are true. I mean,… it seems to be to be about persistence rather than…

Jet Moon   

So on that note: I know that you have said a lot. I know like, obviously, I follow you on social media and you’ve talked a lot about the process of learning about writing for TV, pitching and dealing with rejection. I would just really would love you if you could talk about, you know, how you’ve dealt with rejection. how you’ve…what you’ve shared about it and this kind of demystification process. Because I think that – I, at least, – didn’t understand how much rejection there is and how normal it is.

Jason Barker  

Yeah. So this has been…I mean, in the past, right so say, if I go back to being what, in my early 30s, right. I was writing and I was writing scripts, but honestly, this is where rejection and editing are sort of…they’re there together in this as well. I would literally, there would be something I’d see an opportunity, and perhaps it would say something like “script competition”. And there’ll be a deadline, one month. And I’d think “I’m going to enter that I shall write a script”. And I’d sit there and I’d write a script, send it off, and not get the thing, and be devastated; and decide “this means that I am shit and must not do this again because…” 

And then even, it’d probably be people that I would know, like, and I would…if I passed them in the corridor at the BFI, I’d be devastated “oh, God, they must be laughing at me, they must be, you know, all embarrassed on my behalf that I applied for this…how dare I?” And everything that I thought was wrong, totally wrong. 

And so, now what I know is, number one….I mean, I’m now on the other side of things as well so I’ve been doing reading scripts for funding, which is… I mean, honestly, I think it’s so it’s so interesting. And when I started doing it, I had this idea that I would learn from people’s scripts that it would be from what people write, that I would kind of, you know, be immersed in scripts and would learn – and to a certain extent, I do, I know definitely…well, yes and no, – I definitely get a sense of what works and what doesn’t. But how I apply that to my work, I don’t think I do.

I could, then that would be you know…but I don’t, so there is that. 

But the main thing that I get is that, you know, just reading for something recently: 900 applications, and, you know, very few are going to actually (get in)…My bit, I’m always a reader in a very sort of early stage. I’m recommending things. And, you know, I know that the numbers are …that I’m recommend…I can’t be recommending everything. So I’m making decisions, you know, there are so many to read. And sometimes things are being rejected and not…and sometimes they’ve been rejected, because the person’s, you know, just had an opportunity or the person’s, you know, got a BAFTA or that, you know, they there’s all sorts of reasons why. So I kind of see it from the other side, that you’re often having to let things go that you love. 

You know, it’s not a judgement in that sense. It can be somebody, it can be right place, right time. And the only thing to be said on it is you just have to keep going. And that, that I suppose the main misconception I had was the idea of people like laughing at somebody “haha who does he think he is?” and no one would ever think that. I mean, there’s…I’ve applied for the last few years to this Channel Four screenwriting course, and I have not got in. But one of the things the guy running the course says in his email that he sort of sends out…it’s a generic rejection email, but it’s got a really nice point in it, which is, he says: “There is nothing better for me than somebody who’s applied three, four or five times, and now they’re ready and now they’re on the course”. He said. “those are the best moments”;  he said, “please keep, keep going” you know.

Jet Moon   

I really would like through to hear about how you’ve dealt with it, you know, and I mean, because…I always think that like my myself, you are quite a sensitive person that you feel a lot and yet, you do continue to make things. 

Jason Barker  

So part of it is making it public. It’s a bit like, you know, any shame that I had about not being trans enough with my periods, you know; suddenly I’m on stage doing “The Menstrual Cycle”. I mean, my Facebook is really, it’s…it’s mostly…it’s just friends. But I find that talking about that stuff and I know that it resonates with lots of other creative people like you, that I’m connected with so…and it takes its power away, for me is to talk about the rejections and the applications. 

I mean, I’m not brilliant at it. I applied for something last year. Now the other thing is somebody had given me the advice to – which I’ve never done before -is to not have all your eggs in one basket, apply for so many things that you’ve always got something like…I’ve got a chart here. 

You can’t see it because I’ve got my background faded, but this is a kind of wall calendar and I mark all the things that are deadlines that I’m going to apply for. And then I just keep it going. And the idea being that there’s always something that I’m either waiting for or is coming up so I’m kind of…I’m trying not to do the thing that I used to do, which is where I would like take one thing and apply for one thing and be so hopeful about that one thing and then when that one thing didn’t happen think “I’m really shit” because now there’s always something else, something else that might be might be but

Jet Moon   

It’s very much a turnaround from the thing of saying “Oh, why didn’t I do things earlier? I did things too late. Well that’s bad”, you know, and now it sounds that you kind of have this process of moving forward. And I wonder, um, how did you?

Jason Barker  

I mean, again, if I was to sort of, yeah, loop back to…I want to say one thing: I was not particularly good at this myself though. Just before Christmas, I was waiting to hear about something and I got obsessed with the one thing…I got obsessed with whether I’d be…whether I’d get it, whether I wouldn’t. If I got it, it would be stress, if I didn’t get, it’d be a bit stress. It was one of those. It would have been a fantastic opportunity, a brilliant thing and I would have had to have gone to America and been in this thing. But even then, I couldn’t…I could not stop thinking about it. It was awful. 

And then the worst thing that I did was I found a message board of people online who were also waiting to hear about the same thing. And we all shared and we all…we completely became…it was just really not good. And then on the day that we all got our rejections it was, like no one wrote again, like, I’ve never gone back there. And it just wasn’t good. And I can see it wasn’t good. I could…I can see myself being drawn into that. It’s very difficult, you kind of…because you can’t help but hope and that hope is like…the hope starts a life of its own, you know what I mean? It starts this whole kind of like fantasy world. 

But so what was the thing? It was about the turnaround. Partly outward validation from the outside. So there was…there’s been a couple of things and…there is sort of…yeah, so there was a scheme. I did..got onto to this Bafta/BFI flare mentoring scheme. And as part of that, the woman who ran it said something about..oh, no, hold on, it wasn’t the woman who ran it…as part of it, you got a life coach. I had five sessions with a life coach and she was incredible. And I really…I really liked…I liked her and I liked the way she sort of turned around a lot of things that I was thinking, and I got to see things in a different way. And it was just a lot of the things that she said, and she was talking about, these organisations have invested in me and there’s a reason for that. And I really liked that, it felt like very kind of proof, you know, and made sense to me and felt like validation. And then also doing that, that BBC thing – another external thing – so on the first day, when we went there, the woman who’s the head of new writing, she came in and she said to everyone “oh” she said “anyone here thinking that perhaps we’ve made a mistake?” And of course, we’re all sitting there thinking “Oh god, should I really be here? Is this really embarrassing? Are they thinking…’Oh Fuck, he’s come'”. Anyway so, anyone think we’ve made a mistake?” And basically, we all put our hands up and she told us all off. And she said, “Well”, she said, you know, she’s just said  “I’ve seen something in all of your writing. And that’s why you’re here”. And, you know, she just basically told us, you know, “be here and enjoy it and don’t…don’t spend your energy thinking ‘I shouldn’t be here’ or ‘I’m not this or I’m not that'”.

Jet Moon   

I know, also that you had shared something recently, about umm about yourself mentoring young screenwriters and the spaces for that filling up very quickly. Could you talk about what it’s like, your experience mentoring, whether that, again, shifts that thing around confidence? 

Jason Barker  

Oh, it totally does and I totally love it. I mean it….Okay, so they’re not…they are young, I think, young for the most part compared to me, although probably not all. So this is for queer writers in the South West who are not screenwriters. And so it’s people who are…there’s lots of poets, lots of..there’s people who write zines, but people who haven’t written for the screen. And it’s a two sessions, and it was just a kind of…what, what would be helpful to be thinking in order to write a short film, what’s the difference in the kind of…in the ways of writing I suppose, the ways of forming ideas. 

We had loads of applications and we had loads of applications from people who were like, way beyond you know, so that was that as well, people…it just made me think, “wow, it’s like we all want to be part of something”, you know, people want to be, yeah, be part of it. I had a lot of impostor syndrome actually on the course. I did! I was really, I suppose in my head. I practised a lot of like…I had this sort of fantasy of myself, you know, imparting my wisdom. But when it came to it, I don’t…It was difficult because it was on Zoom, I couldn’t tell if people were enjoying the things I was saying. Because you know people’s Zoom faces are often like this. It’s like, “Are you listening or do you really hate met and wish you weren’t here?” So we’ll see. I mean, there is something from it, though it feels like…I mean, it just feels to me very positive to put together the things that…yeah these kinds of lessons. I suppose, life lessons that I’ve learned and be able to share them back to people.

Jet Moon   

Yeah, I remember someone talking to me about that: even when I was having like my worst time, I had something to offer to other people from my experience. Even if I felt like I was doing very badly. There were things that I could do to be, you know, be helpful. Which actually did help my confidence. 

Jason Barker  

I think so. And it feels really…it just feels like such a positive thing to do, doesn’t it? I mean, you know, I got a lot from…I got a lot from thinking about how the course would be and what I might say, and what were the things that… kind of what did I wish that I’d known a few years ago, what would have helped me sort of move maybe not necessarily more quickly but more easily? What were the ways of thinking?

Jet Moon   

I wonder, I mean, you know, use like “survivorship” in a very loose kind of way. But I think that another thing that is very important to me is the idea of peer relationships. And it sounds like this was something that you touched upon, in describing this course, that many people wanted to be part of a group. But it also seems like a thread, you know, because you have, you know, curated you know, being part of BFI, being part of the Lesbian and Gay Film Festival, as it was then called. being part of Flare, being part of you know…curating at Bath. And, you know, I know, like lots and lots of different things but I think this has been a very core part of that seems to be about people being able to see each other and have peers, a peer community. 

Jason Barker  

Yeah, I mean, that’s definitely something that, because I know that, you know, I find that sense of community really brilliant. I mean, from that BBC thing, I’m on a WhatsApp group with the writers that I was with. And we’ve met two or three times, I suppose, we’ve met face to face, but we’ve got this Whatsapp group, and I love them. I absolutely love…I just love their kind of, you know, people share the ups and people share the downs, and people share the rejections on there, and they share the positive things, and it just feels like this…you know, I think anything like that, where you’ve got that community who get you in some way and get what’s going on.

Jet Moon   

Um, do you think that there would be anything that you would say to people who, who are survivors or peers who wish to write, you know, like, some kind of thing about why….like encouragement or why writing private or public, why it’s important? 

Jason Barker  

Well, so I’ve got, I don’t know that I have um…. I don’t know…I mean, a lot of what we were talking about on the course, you know, we were talking about. People always talking about authentic voice and the “You” and putting it out there, and I have this…I have a quote, this is up here on my…I’ve got a shelf above my computer, right. And this is a quote, and this is actually from Charlie Kaufman, who’s the writer of the Bla Bla Bla of the Spotless Mind. And this is typical for me, like I’m sorry now I cannot remember a single thing that the Kaufman wrote. But anyway, he did write this quote, or I did hear him say this, he said: “What you have to offer is you. If you offer yourself with authenticity, and generosity, I will be moved”. 

And I think…I like that idea of if somebody can offer themselves, that we know when that’s happening and we know when you know…it’s, it’s powerful stuff, you know, we know when something’s kind of…I suppose that…people sharing stories, sharing bits of themselves in how they tell the stories and that not having to be like the whole story. It’s not…it’s not a question…to me it’s not a question of truth. And it isn’t like, if this happened or that happened. There’s something else. It’s like a kind of…the connection isn’t that; it’s that it’s that sort of generosity, and authenticity, that there’s something about that, that people bring in themselves.

And so I suppose that would be it that, what moves me – and I’m reading all these scripts at the moment – and I suppose what moves me to them and what I’m always looking for is like…and okay, so this is something that I was talking to the group about, the queer writers, is that one of the things that I have found really useful, particularly in writing this feature, is to be really clear about why I’m doing it. So…and that, to me, it wouldn’t have been something that I’d have chosen to do. It was through applying for things. They always ask: “Why do you want to do this?” And then I’ve always in the past thought “Fuck sake”, you know, and been really irritated by it. But I really thought – and this was for this application that I didn’t get – but I really thought hard about why. 

I thought “why do I want to be telling a story from 2005? Well what is it about that? And what is it about story? Why now?”. And the questions they sometimes ask is: Why the story? Why now? Why you to tell it? And I thought so hard about it and I got it really clear. And I felt like I had this real kind of clarity to exactly what the story could do, what the…what the potential, what this is what this…and thinking hard about like who did I want to see this story? And I had this thought about – it doesn’t have to be a young person, but possibly a young person – with this idea of somebody who come to this story with all this shit that’s happening for trans people, and comes to my story thinking “being trans is shit” and leaves the cinema and thinks “you know what, it’s not bad”. 

That’s the journey, thinking about this viewer, and I’ve got this picture in my head of the person who just needs to hear that and just needs to come away with the change and a sort of experience that takes them from shit to good, you know, and makes them basically to come out of the cinema feeling better. And so that…I was just gonna say, that kind of clarity, what it’s meant to me, I think, is that the story itself changes. And this is through the editing process. The story itself is a shifting thing, it shifts around, but that bit stays true, the “what I want to do with it”. And so when it starts shifting, if it starts shifting too much like this, I have to kind of “does it still”…Oh, God, if this is my dad…no, it’s not. It’s my…So I have to think “It shifted but is it still true to the why” and  I can kind of test it against that. And that to me feels like such a useful tool and something that without it, you can feel a bit rudderless, you know, you can feel really difficult to hold on to…yeah, hold on to what it what it is you’re trying to do.

Jet Brand  

It’s interesting, because I feel like we’ve come around to the point where I, you know, you know, we had talked about “Deal With the Universe” and within that we’ve talked about this, really, it sounds like writing a fictionalised account or a autofiction or a “based on” or, you know, and I was just gonna ask something about that process of fictionalising your own story. Because that’s also what I do, and I also often wrestle with details, or, you know, this kind of stuff of “God, how do I make that not recognisable? Or will that person be offended? Or am I gonna get sued? “You know, that kind of stuff. But also, it’s this thing of the decisions I make and I think you answered this so well. But do you want to say any more about that? Or do you want to say also something about what you’re working on at the moment?  

Jason Barker

Yeah, so I mean, it’s this fictionalised version of “A Deal with the Universe” called “Mr. Uterus” and I’ve been working on it for ages. I mean, I think in a way, screenplays have a structure. That is probably…I’m not gonna…I mean, I haven’t tried writing fiction in that same way, or tried writing…but a screenplay has a certain structure. And there’s certain things that…what you set up at the start, there are these kinds of expectations if you like. And I knew pretty early on, I wanted to write something that worked very conventionally in that sense, I wasn’t particularly bothered for playing with form, because I really want it to do that particular job, you know, that I said and I want it to be a sort of…yeah, I want it to be like a film…people always  say “that anyone can see” but it isn’t really I’m…I really…I really like this idea of focusing on a person and what this person gets and…and I have got this, I know I said before this, I have got this young person in mind. And I have got this young person going to the movies, you know, and I’ve got this idea of sitting in a multiplex. I’ve got this idea of a really entertaining film that you’re laughing at and you’re having a really kind of, you know, yeah, that takes you on a trip.

Jet Moon 

No we’re not seeing fucking Hillary Swank are we. 

Jason Barker  

So there’s a structure within that, that I suppose it…it’s not the structure of real life, you know, it isn’t at all. And that was one of the things that’s been probably the hardest kind of…the hardest thing for me to get over. So uh, for instance, being that in…in a screenplay, in a feature film in this kind of conventional, you have a character who need something, but they don’t know what they need. We all as the audience know exactly what they need, but they don’t know what they need until right at the end. And everything that you’re designing before then is like pushing up against them until finally, there’s this release at the end, this cathartic release.

And I find that really hard because I’m basically writing a character based on me, that starts from a position that isn’t a position that I ever held, particularly. So I’m happy to kind of really…I suppose trying to…but trying to find truth in what that is and sometimes – what I will say in this is – sometimes a bit like the example that I gave where…of course, now it seems obvious that of course my character ends up dressed in the uterus costume, you know, of course! It makes sense. But I avoided it and not through some conscious kind of avoiding it. It’s just that sometimes you have to go through different to get there. But there are some things that..’ooo if I just started ou’t, and there’s some stuff from family stuff, it’s like you cannot…it’s like you cannot push it down. It’s like it wants to be…it wants to be told as part of this story. Y’know and I find that really interesting. It’s like this kind of…yeah, it’s a bit like, the structure forces you into certain things.

Jet Moon

And I think I just want to underline that this is also not about the factual content. It’s about the story arc and it meeting what you want your piece of writing and your film to do.

Jason Barker  

Well, absolutely. So….and that is it. So factually…factually I didn’t film anything about me pregnant, and factually, nothing happened. And I remember when I was first pregnant, a friend wrote to me from the States –  and friend said to me, he said, “I hope you have a really boring pregnancy”. And it’s a really good wish for pregnancy: really boring. Like nothing dramatic. You know, that’s what you want. But that isn’t what you want in a film. But I also knew that I didn’t want to make a film that made drama where there…like drama out of, you know, will he lose the baby for instance? I didn’t want that to be the drama, to kind of like artificially create drama around the pregnancy.

Jet Moon

I just keep laughing because I keep thinking about that we went to that exhibition at the White Cube.

Jason Barker  

That was bonker what a thing to see. And those people thought that it was me didn’t they? And I was so cross with them. 

Jet Moon

I don’t know if they thought it was you but I think…

Jason Barker  

They were looking at me and I was really I don’t know. 

Jet Moon 

Well it was that thing, you know, we went we saw those huge sculptures, you know of um – oh God what’s his face?- but there was that monumental sculpture of Thomas Beatty pregnant and that people whispering “there’s a pregnant man over there” which I guess in hindsight is funny, at the time was a bit weird. Jason, I think I have said most of my questions.

Jason Barker  

Okay, great.

Jet Moon  

But I hope I haven’t…Is there anything important that I have missed out?

Jason Barker  

No! I think that’s…I think that’s all really good. That all feels really good for me. 

Jet Moon  

Okay, I might just stop recording.