Francesca Dolor

survivor writer who participated in Playing With Fire

Francesca Dolor is a visual artist and writer who lives in London. Their work is concerned with areas of extremity to form a type of psychic self-surgery. Their paintings and drawings are formed of self-automated internal subject matter, which explore internal landscapes and architecture, ideas of subversion, as well as the subconscious.  You can find Francesca on Instagram.

Read the full interview:

Date of interview: 16th August 2023

Content notes: trauma, class, institutions, psychiatric survivorship, trauma through disability assessments, passing mention of abuse, misogyny, hostile government policies

Listen to the full interview while you read: press the play button or click on the title to open a new tab in SoundCloud

Jet Moon  
All right, so first of all, I just wonder if you feel comfortable saying how survivor writing applies to yourself. And obviously it's just that focus on yourself as a writer and creative artist who also happens to be a survivor.

Francesca Dolor  
And yeah, Thanks, Jet. I think that when I think about that, I think about when I saw your open call for the workshops that you were running, and like, I didn't, I was interested, I was immediately like, interested in the advert, and I felt that could apply to me, but it wasn't something that I immediately like, it's not really in my like, practice remit. Which it does mostly consist of visual art. 

But (being a survivor) it's not something that is sort of included in my identity as an artist, I don't think. But is something that I consider in terms of like, my personal and private life. So it did feel there was something about it. When I applied that I was…I used some writing that was writing that was public. When I both applied and, you know, worked on some stuff. 

And I think that there is within, for me anyway, there is a really big distinction between the writing that I make public and the writing that I do in private. And I hadn't really considered the difference or the importance of that before I did the workshop, if that makes sense. I think both in my like largely visual practice, like which like painting and drawing. I like often the process of like composing things, and like the process of making images, and making constructions which are mostly, like quite imaginary. Like I am constantly drawing on sort of personal detail. And that is a big part of my practice. And I think that I approach like writing that is public in the same way. 

But I think after doing the workshop specially with other survivor writers that I really started to think about how that plays out. And I don't think I've really gotten an outcome for that. But that's sort of how I consider myself a survivor writer, that it did feel that it was something that like an identity that was sort of revealed by doing the workshop, if you see what I mean, rather than something that pre-existed beyond that. 

Jet Moon  
So can I ask a question that's kind of not in the list, but relates to this? Because there's a few times where you and I have like talked about our different creative practice. And that you've said to me about the thing of how you, I hope I phrase it correctly, but how you feel that there's a lot of people who are always having like these different categories of what they belong to, or that there's a lot of pressure to kind of state those categories outwardly. And that you feel that you don't really, you don't you'd feel you know, you feel a bit repelled by the pressure to do that. And then can you could you say like, why?

Francesca Dolor  
Yeah, I think I'd want to check in and just make sure that I understood by I think I know what you mean, but like just to be like really specific about, like categorization, and then and then I think I know but yeah, I just want to double check. Yeah,

Jet Moon  
But I suppose it's just like this kind of thing where everyone's in all their different identity, you know, are they queer? Are they working class? Are they this, are they that? You know, and then it feels you've said that feels that there's quite a pressure to do it, well, perform it in some way and that you feel that you don't really want to say a lot of those things outwardly.

Francesca Dolor  
Yeah, I think that I think like obviously, intersections, whether that is class, sexuality, gender, race, any of them are, you know, hugely important for how we understand and contextualise experience. But I think for me, like I think there's something about personal experience, when it's isolated and set to like a larger power structure, be that an art institution or say like a public, you know, something that you're interacting with, that is a bigger institution than yourself individually. It...I think it can feel there is like an imbalance there. 

Like if you're, you know, have one identity - and then your identity is, say, for example, if you're, I don't know, like a working-class person - but you're only surrounded by people that are, you know, hold the power, basically, upper class, or upper middle class. Then that experience, your experiences, I think, are obviously going to feel it's going to make you feel vulnerable, because you're on your own. 
But I think that the flip side of that is, especially when, you know, in sort of your process of doing open calls especially; is like really important is I think it's about bringing like people together. And I mean, there are like so many different, like artistic movements that are proof of that, like the Harlem Renaissance, for instance, or like don't know, even like Stonewall or something, because there was so many like artists and writers that were involved in that, that when you sort of get like a unification of like, people with certain set of experiences, that can be a really important tool for like social change, like huge transformative change. But I think when it is not, when it you know, when it's like isolated or separated, like as an identity, if you have an identity, then that can actually serve to be like an oppressive thing. I think that's what I mean. Yeah.

Jet Moon  
It's a funny one, because sometimes I feel like it's a real catch 22 of how to have the vulnerability to be visible, so you can find the other people, but then at the same time being visible, carries a lot of risk with it.

Francesca Dolor  
Yeah, and I think that, you know, I really think that, you know, when we've talked about survivor writing that really, I really feel that, and I really feel that specifically with my own experience and approach to it. I also feel like that especially like the survivor writing notion that you are investigating and sort of trying to like, you're like, connecting people through that is like very much something that is almost another practice that you have as well. Like, within sort of, like facilitating, but not facilitating as an outsider, you know, just facilitating that sort of collectivity. 

How much those particular experiences for me -I would want to contextualise like that if you see what I mean - because I think I've always been drawing on personal experience in my writing and in my art. And I do say that from personal experience, but I don't...but then the way I contextualise that is overtly through other means. Like I'll connect it to other things rather than the sort of phrase or the idea of specific survivor creating writing. Yeah, but I didn't Yeah, I'm gonna identify with that term.

Jet Moon  
So I was gonna say having read your writing, like to me it feels it's so sharp and contemporary and political. Really, thought your writing is amazing every time I've read anything by you. 

And um, I just I wanted to actually quote a little bit from what you wrote, You know what you had within the last survivor writing programme. And it was: 

"Tarantism is a phenomena that erupted in Italy, supposedly caused by the bite of the tarantula. In order to ward off death, the body reacted with a kind of manic convulsive dancing. Those afflicted would break out in trance like states crying out screaming and dancing evidence showed that music was the sole remedy to tarantism, inducing a treatment of energetic movement. Cases of tarantism, particularly in southern Italy, are in keeping with Mass Psychogenic Illness (MPI). In MPI symptoms spread to all parts of the community or population without any common detectable agent connecting them". 

And that you go on then to connect that into a contemporary experience. And this idea, you know, like the piece is called "You are a murderer / Dream DJ Mix", and you bring the past and present together. And in that is the Dream DJ Mix in a way. 

Can you talk about being part of that survivors writers programme or your recent writing? You know, are there any forms of writing that you do regularly?

Francesca Dolor  
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, thanks for saying that, Jet. Like, I really appreciate your like, view on stuff. And I don't I don't necessarily have like, I've written No, not necessarily, I don't have like an innate confidence in my writing. 

Like, I feel like, creatively, I'm much more like confident as a visual maker. And I don't know why that is, because I like reading other people's stuff. But I think that, so I'll answer the question directly first. 

So I think that more recently, I haven't been making like public writing, but I have been like writing in private. And I think that I did a lot of private writing, more way before, like, I even tried to self-publish, you know, like zines and stuff. And I think that that type of writing is very different, to how then I want my writing to look publicly. And I'm quite controlled over there actually. I think that the way I write publicly, I use editing, like really, really strongly as like a way to construct text, basically.
But then when I'm writing for, like, purely private purposes, both as a way to figure out ideas, and also as like a therapeutic process, like two different ways of writing that I do in private. You know, they have like, quite different purposes. And I think that that's really, really important. 

And I really felt this kind of, like, in the workshop that we did, like, from what I remember of it, there was very much this like push - I felt from other people this like push-pull, of private-public. And especially in the fact that, you know, we were reading some of our own writing is like, vocalising, some of the stuff was private, and it was very much not about it being finished. And I found that, you know, as like, I've never done a writing workshop before but as a process, I found that really, really helpful in terms of how I consider my writing process; and also how I want to go about writing in the future. Does that make sense?

Jet Moon  
Yes, absolutely. Because I mean, I mean, sometimes I think about the ways that people take in my finished writing, and they think that that's like me. And it's like, well, no, that's a really carefully edited thing that I chose to release into the world. And that those are the truths, that I chose to tell. And I think like what you said about like the space of the workshop where It was, um.. I mean, first of all, you know, it's a space where it was like, ‘we're not gonna, like, give each other critique’. And it wasn't like a writing workshop, where we were like learning about writing, it was about us seeing each other. And that was the most important thing. And it was like, "well, this is a contained space", or that and I, yeah, I think do feel it's very different. That's good, what you said about that back and forth, between what was public and what was private within that space.

Francesca Dolor  
I do think that also, like, the other thing I wanted to say about it was that, I mean, you just, you just did you know, that you never meant it to be like a sort of, like, learning to write like, type. But actually, there was part of it, that was a bit like that, for me. And it made me think a lot about when I began sort of like a private writing practice, and what that was about you know, as a young person. 

I wasn't somebody who kept diaries, or, you know, wrote, it just wasn't it that actually was not in my remit of, of like, knowing how to do that. And I think that part of the reason why I think I have this, and I feel very unconfident in stuff that I've like writing that I have made to be a public thing is part of that like, feeling like, I'm a novice, or like, I don't know how to do it. 

And I think that the purpose of writing as a therapeutic thing has actually been really, really informative for me writing in general, because I have had to learn through like a, like, a certain therapeutic process of almost how to do that, like in a kind of structured, you know, almost like, yeah, given some form of structure in that it can be anything, don't need to, like, edit it,  just put it down on the paper. It's not...no one has to see it, you know, and this, this sort of way of like meeting with that. And I think, sort of going back to sort of the purpose of this like as in like survival: writing about, like, talking about specific experiences. I think, some of the experiences, I survived. Certain events that were violent, or, you know, dangerous, is that there isn't really like... you, you don't know how to deal with that. You don't have a language to be able to deal with that. 
And, you know, writing is allowing, is using language, and I think that that's why is so helpful. Like, therapeutically in terms of like, personal healing, to use that to use that tool. And then it's got another life, like, in terms of...like I found that, um, yeah, that I'm very creative person. And I don't know, I don't think the two are necessarily like, one equals the other one. But they do exist, you know, independently and together. 

Jet Moon  
Yeah, absolutely. I think that that flow, or even just whether a person has a drive to do writing that becomes public or not. I was gonna say, like, in this thing, where you talked about public and private writing, like I am interested in - like, hope or like writing, you know, as a method of survival  - or proving our own existence or transforming experience; or like you say, like finding the language. And I feel like you've already spoken to that quite well. But do you have anything else to say about just like writing as a method of survival?

Francesca Dolor  
Yeah, so I think that I think that as, as a creative person, as an artist, as a creative person, I am an artist, I make art. And, and I think that what I've always been drawn towards that method of communication is that I do find it hugely transformative, I find that the process is transformative. I am drawn to processes in artmaking. Because, you know, I enjoy being involved when it goes from one state to another and not necessarily knowing where it's going to end up.

And I think that that has become involved in how I sort of see like, especially the private therapeutic act of writing, that it for me that therapeutic writing privately, has been hugely transformative. But then it's also been really transformative in terms of like, my experiences have dipped into like narratives that I've written about whether and that's not just in terms of like - the bit that you read was sort of about, like a certain history. And I think that there is like a few writers, especially contemporary ones that do that, with social history especially. And maybe talk about other survivors beyond themselves in a sort of biographical sense. And I think that's quite interesting to me actually, like in terms of public writing, and maybe where I see my writing - what it looks like in a public domain - like the excerpt that you read,

Jet Moon  
Which kind of leads very neatly into the next question, because it's like: Has the writing of the survivors, you know, people that you identify as such been important to you? Can you say how and why?

Francesca Dolor  
Yes, so, when I was really young, particularly when I was like, you know, still an adolescent really, I didn't really read too widely, but I did read. I've read the biography of Malcolm X, and it's not something I've really thought about, actually, in that much detail. It was just sort of a random thing. It wasn't really connected. And it's just like, you know, someone's like, 
"Oh, do you read?", 
"No".. 
"Oh, have you read this?" , 
"No" 
"Do you want to read it? It's amazing". 
So I read it, cover to cover, and it is quite a dense book. Like there's a lot in there. But then when I was thinking about this, and I was thinking about, you know, what we may talk about. And thinking about, Oh, you know, the whole thing with the survivor writing. I think, is that we're not doing it alone. And that it's an, it's sort of an act of communion or like, a sort of mutual support system. Even if you're not in active dialogue, just the act of doing it is it sort of links up with other people doing it, even if that's unseen. 

And then I did start thinking about biography and then I thought, "Well where did I get that from?" and then it just a coincidental thing, in that I was like, I, you know, I am quite interested in biography because I do use excerpts, or, like, deconstructed versions of my personal experience in my work. And I thought, well, I read that book when I was quite young like, and that is a full, like, sort of personal testimony. I'm not personally writing memoir or anything like that. But I just thought that was an interesting overlap. 

There's a writer that I've read quite recently who's an American writer as well, called Saidiya Hartman - I hope I haven't mispronounced that I can send you the spelling - who wrote this book, which is a social history of...an intimate history of black life. I think it's from like 1890 to maybe 1930 and it does have a lot about the Harlem Renaissance in it. And that's her particular like field of interest the books called "Wayward Lives, Beautiful Experiments". And you know, I won't go into too much of a plot description, but basically the thing I was thinking about in relation to that, because I was thinking about survivor writers that write in the personal "I", where it becomes like memoir, and then I was thinking and then I, her book actually jumped into my head because I did think it was a really extraordinary book. 

A work of nonfiction, that used archive, as well. And it was, it was about these girls and women and non-binary people as well. Like AFAB non-binary people that survived, like, huge, like political and social injustice in America in this time period. And the way she reconstructed their lives was just in a very short...in short sections gave such a vast overview of a context of the personal with the political; with how that developed into like art and culture and social change. But also just actually just like the lived experiences of people. 

And I was thinking, god that is just, you know, if you were to contextualise that in terms of like the concept or the genre of survival writing, you know. That isn't what I think of straightaway in terms of survivor writing. Because I, I tend to jump straight to like, well, ‘the testimony of the I,’ but then that actually can be reconstructed by other people. And maybe that that in itself is very, very powerful actually, because it in the right hands, it, you know, it can traverse time periods, and like history.

And I was thinking about that, because, I mean, I really like a New Zealand writer I've spoken to you about before, called Janet Frame. And I really love her writing as well. And she writes very much in the I. All her novels, I mean, I haven't read them all, but I think a lot of them are, is almost the same, experiences like recontextualized. And the experience she had personally through a very oppressive psychiatric experience and experience of institutions and misogyny and all the rest of it gets, it's replayed over and over again, in different narratives and in her novels. And yeah, I think I think her writing is amazing, actually. 
But yeah, so there are a few people that that jumped to mind. Also, like Audre Lorde, obviously, you know, writes really like about like the (radical), you know, the like radical transformation that can be had from like speaking about personal experience. And then who else was I thinking about? Oh alright.

Jet Moon  
I just was thinking in particular about Audre Lorde, that there are some lines from her that are about breaking the silence or if you don't speak, you know, when is it gonna happen? And I found those so personally important. 

Francesca Dolor  
Yeah, and I think that is really yeah, definitely very, very important to thinking about survivor writing. And then I was thinking about writers that maybe didn't see themselves as survivors, but like, I really liked the for like, a while now I really have liked the writer, Andrea Dunbar, who wrote "Rita, Sue and Bob Too" the play that then got made into the film, which was British writer, somebody introduced me to her. I'd seen the film when I was younger. And I really thought that the film adaptation was the plot was actually yeah, I don't know, just, there was like stuff in there that was really uncomfortable, probably because I had identification or could see it in certain places, maybe in my own experience, as well, in certain ways. And all her...she didn't write too much because she died when she was quite young, I think, like sort of had a tragic death. But yeah, she - I think - she spoke...she used her experience in a way that was so undiluted, in her work, that I'm not sure where she was able to just get that actual coverage from. It was almost it was unprocessed. And it was just...really reminded me of maybe more how I work privately where I just put it down. And I don't, ...I write it down and I write it down how it comes and I don't try to dilute it or interfere with it. And that's it. 

Jet Moon  
Yeah, I mean, I wonder what difference it makes when you're given a platform and whether that gives you confidence in your own writing, you know. And I just wanted to kind of go back a little bit and just say, I mean, obviously, we know each other, we have a relationship to peer knowledge. And I wonder if you could speak about that a bit. You know, that building of peer-to-peer sharing or peer-to-peer writing and what it means to you or why it is important to you.

Francesca Dolor  
Yeah, so for me like the peer-to-peer thing has been really like a life changing thing, not necessarily...more that, sort of lifestyle and how I like choose to live my life now. This sort of vocalising, something that I have difficulty with, which could be any of the things I've had difficulty with over my life. And like vocalising that, and then finding a way to like ask for others to like come and help me. And that might be looking into like a specific group or trying to seek out other people really, that have a community that I need help with something...erm I'm being very vague but I think that the thing about mutual, ..for example, mutual aid or like support structures as an idea, is really, really different from like institutional models. 

And I don't just mean institutional models in like, but it also applies to like prisons, hospitals, but it could also be like, you know, museums, publishers, unfortunately they also operate under the same power regime that prisons do, basically. And I think mutual aid and like self-organisation support structures will always offer a freedom and a safety to people that those institutions never can. And I think that, that is why I think I really got a lot out of the workshop you ran actually, because of the way it was organised, and why it was being organised. And yeah, just kind of like, just, that everyone came with something. But it wasn't.... it just felt very different to like, when....

Jet Moon  
Yes, to everything that you've said and I was thinking, you know, when you're like talking about having read Malcolm X or Janet Frame, you know, that, like, so completely different experiences, but both of them are kind of writing an untold history, words from that whole personal perspective. I wonder if you could say something about healing stigma through visible survivorship, like, whether that's your own visibility or the visibility of others? And, how it has, because you have spoken a bit about being alone, or not being alone, and how that can shift things.

Francesca Dolor  
Yeah, so, I think that what I have found over the years is that I have had a lot of...felt a lot of personal like resistance towards being visible about certain aspects of my experiences. And I don't actually think that was unwise. I think as I've become more confident, and understand my experiences more, and what that means and how that's connected to an actual context that these things, although they may have happened to me as an individual in an isolated incident, they actually relate far more to a wider context, in the world than I realise. 

And I think that those realisations have been really, some of the most helpful realisations in coming to terms with some quite difficult stuff. Yeah, I mean, I did. You know, when you asked me to do the interview, I was certain I wanted to talk quite generally about that stuff. I think that part of the reason though, I feel quite like now with my things, like, I think I was really scared of some of the stuff that I experienced, and I wanted to lock it away. 

And I didn't want it to be part of me. And I think over years and years of sort of therapy and living in different ways and choosing to maybe deal with things in different ways as well, that I realised that you know, don't get rid of stuff, like your experience is your experience, unfortunately. And I think that I had a lot of like stigma towards the things myself, mainly because that is like a really common response to something, especially if it's happened to you, you know, without your permission. You have had your autonomy and your power taken away from you. 

And I think that, you know, that's why I wanted to talk generally about it, because you gave the examples that I was talking about, and you put them next to each other. And I think that there is something, they're examples of violence really, aren't they? And I think violence can manifest in many, many different ways, but it's still violence. And that has its own purpose in society. I think. 

Jet Moon  
Yeah, I mean, I completely, utterly respect and believe in this thing that you say about when you are public about things or when you are not, and respecting your own inner processes. I think it's so important. And, um, you know, the only thing that mystifies me for myself about my own process is just how long it can be, and that I didn't have any idea of how, how long it could take to process understand things. But I'm sorry, go ahead.

Francesca Dolor  
I was gonna say, like, I don't know about you, but like the say, like, the same experience can look so different. From five years, to, you know, to 12 years, and then it can look the same, maybe, as it looks at seven years, and then it will, and it's like this definitely like this non, almost like a nonlinear processing that has taken place for me with most of the stuff. And I think that that has also been quite helpful to accept that, that there isn't, you know people do not fit into little boxes that, you know, that are like a clear and easy story to tell. And I think that things that exploit that, want to do that.

Like, if, for example, these experiences have affected your health, and you have to go through like a health screening in order to access like financial support, for instance. And that really, I mean, the only way I can describe that is like, you're having to like wheel out some sort of like trauma porn or something like that. That's what's expected of you, which in itself is like hugely violent, and oppressive and exploitative. And, you know, all of that is done for financial gain. And none of that game is yours. Like, it's just like loads of random, like private company businessmen that are making money off of that. I mean, it's bizarre. Yeah, that's it. That's all I have to say on that.

Jet Moon  
Yeah I mean, when you were talking about that,  - Malcolm X or Janet Frame - just as personal stories; I was just thinking about that thing of how otherwise, experiences are constantly brought back to being like "Oh, it's just, it's individual " and this kind of gaslighting. I feel like it is an institutional, social, historical gaslighting, that keeps saying that it's not a bigger picture. To the point where I even have to keep a paragraph (visible to myself) somewhere where I talk about the thing of when you experience, you know, some kind of state or personal violence, then you're constantly told that you caused it or, you know, and there's this constant weird loop; to try and keep you in that. Where, as you say, someone profits from it, from you being in that position

Francesca Dolor  
Yeah, particularly in the UK with like, certain like health care practices, and welfare practices. That is the case, the current case and like the UK climate. Yeah.

Jet Moon  
And I feel erm just to come back to like, the questions, I just feel that um, like, we've talked quite broadly about the idea of survivor. And that's really how I want to keep it as well, as you know, so it like brings us people who of relate to that idea together; but then a lot of people when they see the word survivor, it's like they assume a lot of things like a sort of like a ‘sad victim picture’, you know, andI wonder if you wanted to like, comment on that at all?

Francesca Dolor  
Yeah, because I mean, when you say it like that, like it really reminded, there was like these novels that came out in like the 90s, there was like this genre of novel that was like really, really popular. I feel like with people that also read the Daily Mail coincidentally, but I don't know if that's just me, generalising and speculating. But it was like the sort of novels that were these like, sometimes actually ghost written like semi-autobiographical novels about, you know, children that have overcome very, like traumatic abuse, often from like, caregivers. And then it was sort of like set in this way where it sort of outli...I mean, I never wanted to ever read any of them. But like, I saw them around, and like, read like bits, and I was like, "God, this is actually awful". 

But I mean, you know, maybe that brought, I don't know, something for the people who had those experiences. But I thought that the publishers that were after these kinds of content and stories, there's, I don't know, there's something really, I feel like quite dodgy on the behalf of the publisher that is like, seeking to contextualise those experiences for that person, rather than that person contextualising it for themselves. I feel like...yeah, that's what made me think of that stuff. 

But I think for me, more importantly, because that's what you wanted to know about is, you know, how I sort of relate to that stuff is that I think in my writing, like in my public writing, I use a lot of depersonalization in the writing of certain events. And that is something that I find, like quite protective in terms of what I'm willing to put into the world about myself. Because I think that it's important for me to be realistic and acknowledge that, you know, the world is not set to like a comforting, safe place. And there are people out there that really want to exploit that or put that down or, or continue that kind of like injustice. Yeah.

Jet Moon
So I wonder, like another, like a slight tangent: so I think that the genre that you're talking about would be like the sort of misery memoir.

Francesca Dolor
That's the one misery memoir genre, yeah. 

Jet Moon
But I also wonder, so how that would compare to something, so for example, like there's everything, all of the work by Janet Frame, but like, there's one called, I think, "Living in the Maniototo" and it's about psychiatric institutions, and women's psychiatric institutions, I think, during the 1950s, and just the kind of conditions and so how...is there a way that you would separate out those genres? Like what might you see that you value and really gravitate to in get from her work? And then what's happening on the other side, where you feel like there's, you know, like that exploitative publishing relationship around the so called, you know, misery memoir genre.

Francesca Dolor
Yeah, definitely. I think it's actually interesting, because I was listening to a podcast about...there was this novel that was written and I think it was nominated for the Booker Prize it's called "A Little Life", I never read it, but it's quite a chunky one. It was like, famously very long, and it was really divisive, actually, because it's sort of used the misery memoir, thing in a genre:...in a fictional way. And I think they've also like made like a play out of it, and it's about is sort of, I think it centres on a group of men's  adverse experiences around sexual abuse. Anyway, not to go too far into that, but it just made me I remembered listening to a conversation with different authors about that. 
And I think that the main difference between someone like Janet Frame's work and like misery memoir is that I think it is down to this, this sort of exploitative template that he's like, put on to certain experiences. Whereas I mean, I'm not a Janet Frame expert, but the impression that I get from Janet Frame, what I have read about her working practice was that she was a writer and she wrote..., she just wrote, and I feel like the construction of those events were hers. I don't know if that's okay to say like they...when I read her work, it feels like they very much belong to her. And that that's her choice. And I think that her writing has autonomy.

I remember reading a thing about her that she would submit a lot of stories before she first got published. She was like constantly submitting stories. And that's actually how she became published in the first place was that it came off the back of her submitting a story to a writing competition. And, oddly, that was the reason why she got (pardoned) -  she was supposed to undergo really violent and ineffective medical procedure called a lobotomy. And, you know, she was misdiagnosed, but still, I mean, this, like medical procedure, I mean, it's rubbish. It doesn't do anything, it just is violent. And, and she was pardoned for the lobotomy because she won this writing competition, which must have been so bizarre. 

But what I'm saying is, I do feel like that her voice is so vital to the storytelling of her experience, but it's not just her experience, it's an experience of other people who were with her and who have experienced that particular institutional abuse from like, particularly like psychiatric facilities. 

Jet Moon
So, um, in a broader way, I feel like, a lot of people could or will, at some point connect with survivorship in their life, you know, whether that's serious illness, disability, being part of some other survivor group...could you say something about like, this broader idea of survivorship? And, um, you know, why it could be important to acknowledge that as a form of like social care or potential social change?

Francesca Dolor  
Yeah, I think like the beginning of our conversation, like, I feel that that trajectory is very clear in terms of the history of social change. Like we see it in the archive a lot with like people's testimony and also, as we move away from an event, certain writers get grouped together, even if they aren't necessarily part of a conscious social movement. I mean, some are, but some aren't and I think that that is proof that that is a powerful and transformative thing. 

And I also think that the...the other transformative purpose of it is that it's, especially with writing that's public, or in a public archive, public accessible archive. Even if that writing was not meant to be public, like in the form of like diary, or memoir, or like journaling, that it allows people maybe with the same experience to connect with something or that actual thing. Like, you know, we still live in a very racist world, and it was still racist, you know. And people can, you know, argue about, ‘well, there's been progress here, or there's been’, I mean, it's still, people are still experiencing racism. You know, it's not okay.

And I think that certain injustices or experiences, that then they're not isolated, whilst they're not just isolated in terms of someone's personal experience, like one or, you know, other people experiencing the same thing over and over again, that that can actually be extended across generations. You know, like, for example, with, like, misogyny and like patriarchy, and women's rights. Like the history of what women's rights (are), like how those histories extend across hundreds and hundreds of years. But then also how those things then allow us to look at things that are current that maybe we didn't have the language for those specific things in certain cultures. And thinking about sort of like, you know, how, why gender issues are so important, and I think also intrinsically linked to the gay rights movement, even though that's about sexuality. Do you see what I mean? So it's like the fight may be different, but actually it is about... there is a connection there and they will be intrinsically linked because of that.

Jet Moon  
And there is also like a real movement from a lack of visibility or a real individualness towards something that's seen within the context, and has a language around it and is more broadly and socially understood. Yeah, absolutely.

Francesca Dolor  
Exactly. And just like, I mean, one of my experiences, I'd say, like, around that I've had difficulty with, that hasn't always been a good experience, like dealing with things around like, for example, addiction, like just looking at the sort of the push and pull of how addiction, for instance, is treated socially. Like the push and pull, between it being like a criminal issue and a like or a moral issue, like a moral failing, and a healthcare issue. So there's like in different countries, different cultures, different times, there's this push-pull between all these different elements. And it's the same thing. And I think that you see, like, you see that through how exactly how you said, like the vocabulary, the understanding, the language around those things. Yeah.

Jet Moon  
Do you want to say anything to survivors who wish to write, you know, any words of encouragement, or, you know, things why you think writing in private or in public is important?

Francesca Dolor  
I think the most important thing for me personally, today is like the, the importance of the private writing, that, that the private writing for me is very much like, important to my survival, and how I deal with things on a daily basis in order for them not to...I think we're dealing with like powerful things, you know, the word survival is not to be taken lightly. Basically, I think that that's the main thing.

But also, like, I suppose to bring it back to that people who consider themselves to be survivors in whatever context that is, that that is...you've had to overcome something that was very dangerous, or multiple things that were very dangerous to your like well-being in your life. And I think that that carries like a long legacy for a lot of people for different reasons. And I think that that is why the, for me, the private writing practice is so important, because it allows me to live with those experiences. 

And I think that, that is the most vital thing, not necessarily...it's not about importance, it's about a need, isn't it? Like for me, I need to do that, because I need to carry on. Need to find a way to live, basically. And then I think that the thing with sort of more public facing is that, who knows how that will manifest and come. But I do think that, like, humans are creative. I think that's part of...that is part of like a human desire to be creative, I think and that that can manifest in lots of different ways. You know, it doesn't, it's not necessarily an artistic thing, always. But I think that sort of creating something or making something or producing they're very, like, important to like human... like the  survival of humans in general, aren't they? Like, you have to sort of like make stuff do stuff, otherwise, you can't get your basic needs met. 

And I think that that's why like, often creative stuff, it does have a sort of defiance to it and such a like powerful transformative mode, because it's sort of doing the opposite of what some adverse experiences would want, which is to destroy you. You know, so it's like, do it I suppose. It's like this thing of doing the opposite of what...of what you think is being asked of you. Yeah. Yeah.

Jet Moon  
I kept thinking of Rishi Sunak., because this whole idea of like having arts and you know, things that don't earn you money kicked out of a university curriculum and now apparently those things have no value and then you're saying you know about exactly what you said.

Is there anything you know of yours that you want to talk about? Or like that you're doing at the moment that I mean, you've talked a lot about, you know, your private writing or whatever, so: Anything that you want to mention or promote, at all, no pressure?

Francesca Dolor  
Yeah, I was aware that I might get asked this and I don't... I was having a think and I don't, there's nothing I'm doing publicly at the moment, I think, that I need to promote. I mean, I hope that I will, at some point, be doing more like public stuff at some point that like people can see and engage with. But I think at the moment that I'm just, I'm sort of in a more of a private thing, so there isn't really anything specific to talk about. Yeah, but thank you.