Dior Clarke

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Date of interview: 25th September 2023

Content notes: racism, homophobia, class, structural inequality, gender racial stereotypes

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Jet Moon 

Thank you so much for like, all the faffing around, and both of us finally getting to be in one place. And I thought I’d just, you know, start with that first question. So, I wonder if you’d feel comfortable saying how survivor writer applies to you. And, um, my intent….it’s not, you know, you don’t have to, like, divulge lots of information. But I suppose it’s like, if you have that impression of, you know, what immediately comes to you, maybe thinking that way?

Dior Clarke  

So, I think it applies to me in a way of, I suppose, how can I put it a bit about me, navigating my way through life, and, but using the things that I overcame, to influence my creativity. And a lot of that would be in growing up. I grew up in Hornsey in North London, I grew up in a very working-class family. My father was around when I was young but mainly in a single mother family. And I come from a Caribbean family, Jamaican…. Jamaica is my heritage. And from a young age, I always knew I was a bit different to all the other boys. I knew that there was something inside of me that wanted to be expressed but being…homophobia and being out in the black community, in the Jamaican community is very still an issue that I believe we still have a long way to come. 

And not only just in that, when it comes to the UK, I think where I grew up around being around a lot of gang culture and boys from that kind of leave of that energy. And just being a boy in London as well in North London. It was hard. 

But as time went on, due to the passion for me wanting to act because it wasn’t always writing. it started off with acting and going to my first drama school I soon realised that there was a world outside of the world that I only saw myself in, that really embraced every kind of person, whether that was if you are a nerd, if you’re…if you want to be a punk, like anything, and I was really surprised when I went to drama school, “Oh, my God, these people are telling me to be me, be me, be me”. And I saw other kind of people being embraced, that wasn’t necessarily embraced where I was from, and I really feel like acting helped me find that. 

And as time went on, and I then fell into writing, because writing was never my thing. I only said I was going to write because once I got into the acting industry, I was kind of like, in this industry that embraces me, but at the same time, I’m not seeing people… I’m not seeing my story being told, I’m not seeing people like me in the theatre and I’m still not seeing people like me on TV. And when I do see people like me on TV, I’m seeing the Top Boys, what else is there…the Kidulthoods. Like, these are films and stuff and I used to think but I’m from that area and I have a story and I want to see myself in those stories. So you know, I’m gonna write a story. And that’s when I wrote my first ever thing called Batty Boy. But yeah, it’s a bit…and the journey has continued. But that’s how…that’s how it kind of sparked in me post-surviving in my…surviving in my world and making sure I survive in my career because I deserve to have…I deserve to have a voice and I deserve to be seen. And I think it’s something I’m still currently going through now, even with my successes that I’ve had.

Jet Moon  

It’s not in the questions, but I always mean, we just know each other, you know, through applying really, through that Arcola queer theatre group. And I remember your audition, because we had to do like an improv and it was yourself and other people like on the  bus and you like turn around and just gave them like a huge mouthful and this confrontation about racism, and it was….it was really explosive, but it was also super sharp. And I think it also scared the fuck out of the other people…part of your audition group because they just. I think they were stunned. They actually didn’t know what to do with it.

Dior Clarke  

Yeah, do you know I forgot about that? So many things have happened. I forgot about that. But I do remember that I do remember that now you said it, yeah, yeah. And even from then it was mostly of the all these things bubbling up that I was wanting to express. Yeah.

Jet Moon  

So you mentioned the National Youth Theatre, the Playing Up programme. 

Dior Clarke  

The first drama school I went to actually was a school called LSDA. And it was in South Kensington and I’ve done a foundation there. And they were the ones that when I went, they showed me this world, where you could be yourself, which is quite funny, I never…I didn’t come out then. I was amongst people that I knew I could, but I still was just knew that there was something in…I was just so used to not being able to share that, so even though I was given a community that was saying “I think you can do it”, I wasn’t ready. and it was actually – bringing on to what you said – is when I went to Playing Up. And Playing Up was the National Youth Theatre. It’s a six-month course, and aimed at people from like, disadvantaged backgrounds that couldn’t necessarily afford the traditional way of training, and yeah there was a group of us. And it was the first time that I went, I think that was the first time I went into like, a space where I was okay and I owned my sexuality. And not only did I own my sexuality, I realised that I could use both sides of me. So I could use…I could, I could present my feminine side, and that side of me, but I could also, like I said, when I used to see these shows of like Top Boy and Kidulthood and things like that, I could tap into that side of me as well. So it just really showed me that you don’t have to just be one thing, you can use everything. Don’t just put yourself in a box. And that’s when I realised, okay, that’s my power. It’s all the different parts of me that I can now show. I know, you’re not just this, and you’re not just that.

Jet Moon  

I think I remember, you know, for myself, that process of coming out, a real idea of cultural divides of like, I belong to this world, or did I belong to that world and…and trying to, like see myself in it somehow was difficult. So there’s an interview where you spoke about Paul Edwards, and teaching you and your contemporaries on the programme and to see yourselves not just as actors, but as practitioners, and how that struck you and encouraged you to start, you know, to try to start writing. Can you say more about that beginning process of writing?

Dior Clarke  

Yeah, so I remember being in Playing Up, we had that session, and we spoke about practitioners, backgrounds, Stanislaski, all the different kinds of practitioners, but he’s the one that always sticks in my head, of course, Dan. And it just kind of sparked something in me in that moment, like being more than just an actor, be a practitioner. And also, maybe what it was sparking at the time, I didn’t know, was that I was going to have to be a practitioner, I was going to have to because in order to create space, I was going to have to create…. so and I never saw myself as a writer…being in school, I wasn’t always the most academically smart person when it comes to writing, like my spelling is still rubbish. I make up my own punctuation. But we have spellcheck and everything for that now, and I’ve still wrote stuff so it’s shows that you can. 

So I remember leaving…once I left Playing Up…once again, because I had done my foundation, like lots of people got into drama school, lots of people doing stuff. And once again, I knew that I had the talent, but like no one was opening the door for me. Like getting to final stages and I was just…and it was like coming on to about maybe four years prior to Playing Up of auditioning for drama schools and I just thought “Do you know what? I’m going to write something” and there was a programme going on called Short Flicks and a lady that taught me in Playing Up, her name is Karolina, she was part of that course. And she said…she just invited me along, I was actually only meant to be in a trailer….to advertise the course. And in the trailer, I made up a pitch and the pitch was Batty Boy. So that was my trailer. And she said, after we done the trailer to pull the trailer she said “Dior, why don’t you just, you know, why don’t you actually enter Short Flicks with that pitch”. And I was like “Really? Me, write something? Really?”. And I thought about it and I thought “why not?”. And I did it. 

And before I knew it, I got to stage one then I got to stage two and then I was writing the script and then I was presenting it to Sky and then it got greenlit, and all of that came from knowing that I had to become I suppose, a creator, a practitioner, if I really wanted the stories that I wanted to be told to be out there because no one’s going to do it apart from me. 

And I think so much in this industry, we have a lot of, you know, the discrimination and the unfair representations. People get so angry, their like  “They’re not telling our stories! They’re not telling our stories! They’re not telling our stories!” and it’s like “Well they’re not gonna tell your story because it’s not their stories. You have to tell your story”. And that’s what I believe. I think…I get it that we need more representation but we need more people that actually are telling our stories. And then we can shout and argue to get them on, get them on the screen. And in the theatres.

Jet Moon  

It’s an enormous amount of energy, though. And I also read another thing where you were like, well.. part of that thing around this telling the story of Batty Boy that you’d always wanted to tell it, but some of it was not completely believing that your story was interesting to other people somehow?

Dior Clarke  

I kind of think that one thing Short Flicks taught me was that don’t tell the story that you think the world wants to hear, tell the story that’s important to you because that’s what’s going to be good. 

And I think so much depends on on what you’ve been through in life, the knock backs, especially if the story or part of the story that you’re telling is for so long in the past and insecurity or something that you wasn’t confident about, you do get into this thing of “who’s going to care about me?” And you think of all the negatives, but I don’t know what ma-… but for some reason, there was just something in me that just knew that it was a good story. 

And I’m very controversial. So for me, I know the black community. I always talk from the black community perspective, because I’m a black person, of course, I come from a Jamaican heritage, but the black community is full of so many different races, African, different Caribbean, so many, but I know that I knew the story was important because I know that it’s….in a word….I don’t know how to say, well, yeah, I think there still is the correct word…there’s still so much hypocrisy in that community. So as much as there’s so much way to come, so much hate to come, I know that so many people in that community like me not living their lives. 

So I know that story is so relevant, even if…even if people aren’t saying it. I know there’s gonna be so many men sitting down that are still living, DL straight lives that are watching it and relating to it. I know there’s so many mothers that know their children are that way or that inclined. I know there’s so many people in Jamaica that are like me, so…so I…because I know it but I’m one person that had has been, I suppose brave enough….yeah, brave enough – I don’t want to sound big headed – but brave enough to be like “this is me and this is my truth”. I know there’s so many people sitting there relating to it and unfortunately, they just, Jet, they’re still scared. So if I can be a voice and representation to make them know that, “Look, I’m doing it. You can do it too”. And only then when we get so many people doing it, it should…it should get better. 

Yeah, I remember this one lady – but this was like a few years, maybe like last year or the year before – but…she came up to me and I was on…this is when I had a little part-time job like working in an ice cream place and she stopped me and she was like, “Oh my god, you’re that boy that I watched a short film called Batty Boy” and she was a black lady. And she goes “I just want to say to you that I watched that film and after I watched it with my son and he came out to me, thank you”. And in that moment, I realised that’s why I do it. Because I was going through one of those phases, actor phases and those kinds of creative phases where was like “I can’t be bothered with this industry no more, like I’m over it, all the rejection” and then when she said that to me, I thought “okay, that’s why I do it” and that’s what I do. I don’t do it for the homophobic people because, I used to think I would do it for them that I could change their mind. I don’t do it for…yeah, I don’t do it for the homophobic people, I don’t do it for the haters. 

I do it for the people that need it. The people that need it. And the people that need the story, the young boys that need the story, the young girls that need the story and the people that are going to see it and take a change from it like that mother but I don’t do it for the hate anymore. Before I used to think I was waring everyone and I had to fight everyone and I was going to tell the Batty Boy story and then all of a sudden, all the homophobia was going to disappear and that didn’t happen but what I then realised was that I was doing it for the people that need it

Jet Moon  

I mean yeah, that’s…it is so touching when you…I mean have someone like that recognise your work and really tell you that they’ve seen something what you did and like that thing you know, her son coming out to her it’s like “Wow”. But I think you know when you talk about that thing of like not writing for what we think other people want us to write but you know writing how we want to write… for me I’ve had that advice given to me, which was incredibly valuable and it’s also rare for other people to say that. Because, you know, often people do encourage you to write how they want. But I think it’s also it’s this kind of thing, as you say, about like writing what you, your kind of…what it’s almost like reaching for what we don’t know, you know, like something outside of even what we can imagine in a way?

Dior Clarke  

Yeah, it’s almost like…yeah it’s just liter-…it’s just writing….I think….I think it’s something that we always had in us and then a lot of times we can go to different institutions, we can go to different programmes and just the industry itself, and you kind of…some people lose that because so much things are watered down, so much things are controlled and edited. But I think you always have to remember what got you to into that place in the first place. And that was the raw gut instinct to write from…write from your heart and write what you feel. And of course, you’re going to edit things of course, of course, things are going to change. But you can’t…I just don’t believe you can write something that you’re not passionate about. That’s maybe just me and I’m like….how can you write something that you’re not passionate about? 

How can you write something that you don’t…you’ve not really lived or you know, like, there are things that are imagined, like you know, I suppose you can write a story about fairies and dragons and things but still within that there still has to be some truth in whatever story you’re telling. And I think that’s what makes the best stories and yeah, it’s holding on to that actually. And also knowing as well because of what I’ve learned as well because when I went on to write Passion Fruit and this was my stage play, this was the recent one that debuted at the New Diorama  in 2022. And I saw Passion Fruit as….it wasn’t about a boy because it was an extension of that. Batty Boy was 10 minutes and I told a short story in a short time but there was still so much things to pick up on and Passion Fruit was like “Okay, now this is mine. This is mine to really go for it” and….but what I learned with Passion Fruit was that I could tell a story…I could create a story inspired by my experiences but it still be so truthful. So there’s the learning or the writing from the truth, but knowing that it can be inspired from the truth but it’s still something that I know about it, it’s still something that I’ve lived, it’s still something  that is close to my heart. 

Jet Moon  

Just want to loop back a little bit to Batty Boy because obviously you know you went this huge journey from being someone who like, you say you at first didn’t really believe there were other black gay people out there to having this huge platform with Sky Arts, producing Batty Boy in 2018. And I wonder what it was like going from something you know like where you struggle to find that and then to having something that’s really in a sort of personal to being going and being like hugely public like what…how does that…

Dior Clarke  

It was scary, I actually remember….because I had come out by them…yes I had come out, I had come out. I could sometimes have to think that like…yeah, I had come out but it was…it was still knowing that that was going to go out and no matter what, no matter the state I had gotten to my life to be confident and brave, you still know how much hate there is in the world. So there was still this fear of “oh my god people are gonna see it, people are gonna see me, there’s like a bit of sexual scenes in there, people are gonna see me doing gay sexual acts. They’re gonna see me with makeup on”. So it was really…it was scary but at the same time…yeah, I was just ready for it. 

I knew it was meant to be done. So I kind of…once it went out, I was like “Okay, it’s done now”. But I was scared but yeah, I was scared but I don’t know I just was like I was so…I think I was so sick and tired of auditioning for drama schools and not getting in or getting to the final stages or auditioning for certain roles and not getting seen. And I honestly believe the only reason that I wasn’t getting seen and I wasn’t getting so many roles at the time was because I didn’t – and I still don’t – I don’t fit the stereotypical black boy norm. And I think that’s why my career has been so hard. I think I remember my one of my first agents, I won’t name them, but they actually asked me if I wanted to, if I wanted to make it known that I was gay. Because that is how they felt. And it wasn’t being rude, but at the time I said “Well, no, that’s what I want”. That’s how it’s going to be”. 

Remember, quite a few people asked me that. I had people in drama school ask me “Do you always want to play the gay character?” Like there was just so many things that went on and I had like, or I had even an agent say, once, you know, “you’re gonna be alright Dior, because you’re not big and black. So you can do other roles”. So they were always trying to find a box to put me in. And I never fitted none of them. Because I was gay. I was, but then I was a black boy that still had my kind of street side in me. And I still…I still have that. So I just, and I think still up to this day, I still think I struggle because they’re just…I don’t know, if they’re ready, ready to see someone like me. And we are seeing more growth. I’m not saying that…I am seeing more queer roles and gay roles, and I’m seeing more black, gay roles. But I still don’t see someone like me. If I’m being honest. In America…America, I do see it more in America but I think they need to stop with the stereotype they want to see of what I represent and put this on TV because this is real.

Jet Moon  

Yep.

Dior Clarke  

I don’t know do I sound cocky? 

Jet Moon  

 No, no, it totally makes sense to me. And I’m gonna, I’m going to go back and ask you about Passion Fruit. But because we’re talking about stereotypes, I’m going to ask you about this now. So um, I guess I want to….the question I wrote was like, “Could you speak about both writing and embodying and other kind of black masculinity?” I felt a bit like, do I want to use this word masculinity? Because, you know, in that in itself, it’s like, saying “you are this” and I don’t want to say that, if that makes sense. But I’m curious, you know, like, for me, I think a lot about how audiences and society broadly, they do have a capacity to shift away from stereotypes. But then frustratingly, sometimes it’s by like, making just a new bloody stereotype

Dior Clarke  

It is, by making a new stereotype, it is.

Jet Moon  

So I guess I’m trying to get at what it is; that hope to be, like, properly seen in a complex, nuanced way. You know, and that when you write an act in a piece, you know, that’s another level of self-exposure, but like you say, it’s another instance of like, being properly, actually seen. So maybe you could speak about that.

Dior Clarke  

Yeah, I think this world…is still a debate like there is…no matter what there is masculinity, there is a…there is a representation of femininity. You get told, I got told in drama school that, you know, “You’re gonna have to learn how to play straight”. And I don’t like that word, “Playing straight”. But the reality is when they say that it’s being masculine, that’s what they’re saying. And that’s how, and that’s the industry, that’s how they’ve done it. 

But and I do think when, like you said, when they do break stereotypes, so yeah, let’s say they put a black gay character on TV tomorrow. They…. a lot of the times, it still played a certain way, I think. And not that there aren’t characters like that. Listen, I have feminine ways in me. I will go around, I’ll say “Yas queen”, I will cartwheel or I will death drop, I’ve got it all in me. But then like you said, beyond that, there’s other side and I think a lot of the times with these characters, we don’t see that….we don’t see all the different shades, we just see…we just see the shade that the world is used to. And I don’t get…I don’t know why, maybe that’s just because they’ve got a product and they need to sell it and that’s how they’re going to sell it because that’s what people know. 

But I think when they take the risk, and they show the complexities it’s when it does amazing things like programmes like New Light. Whenever there’s, there’s big risks that are taken, it pays off. And I’m just like “Okay, so why not just keep taking those risks?”. And I think that…I think that’s what I’m about. I think that’s what I represent. I’m not just one thing. I’m so complex when I act, I will bring so many different layers and maybe… Sorry that was my agents calling me… that’d be a phone call, a good phone call and I’ll call back after…but um maybe because I’m not giving the layers that they want: they don’t cast me! 

I’m still wondering…because I have done a lot of things but I’m just…I feel like I could have done more. And I’ve gotten to the point in my career now where I’m like “I’m going to always write, and I’m going to always create”, because I’ve got so many projects that I’m doing and things and writing characters that I want to see in stories. But for a long time, my biggest successes have come from the things I’ve done for myself. I mean, I know I’m jumping again, but when it came to Passion Fruit, if I never wrote that and performed it, I’ve got myself nominated as, I got…last year, I was nominated as Best Male Actor in a play at the Black British Theatre Award but I wrote that nomination for myself. So my point to saying this is that I’m hoping there will come a time in my career where I can step into other people’s work and bring it alive. And one thing I want to say, I don’t know if you’ve heard of a guy called Billy Porter?

Jet Moon  

Yes.

Dior Clarke  

But Billy Porter…. you know, it’s really motivated me, he said for years he just got rejected, rejected, rejected, rejected, because he was so different, and so beyond his time. And at the time, he couldn’t understand. But now, he is thankful for that rejection, because that rejection is what made him so a success now, because there’s no one like him. So at the time, when he was getting all that rejection, he just couldn’t understand but now he is the Billy Porter. Now people call because they want Billy Porter. So all that rejection made him a household name. But I’m just going with the Billy Porter quote that maybe that’s just my path.

Jet Moon  

Well, I mean, the thing is that you are…it sounds like you are having this enormous talent actually, with writing, you know, and that is sometimes it’s hard to, like, recognise those things when it’s you, you know. But um I could ask you to talk a bit more about Passion Fruit. So, you know, because you say this thing of it coming from this different place than Batty Boy, and we often see stories where the character comes out and it ends there but the biggest journey starts afterwards. I guess, you know, can you talk…I mean, I process a lot of things when I write, that’s kind when I work things out and, um, is it like that for you this, you know, like the next part of the journey?

Dior Clarke

Um, for me, yeah, I just…because I just thought, ‘cus I remember, what really sparked Passion Fruit was, I wanted to dive more into the story that we never got to see in Batty Boy. And then beyond that, I do think after…I remember, you know, like, I navigated myself through the culture, boyhood…came out, and I went straight into the gay black scene, which there is a big one, which is still very undercover and that’s always…that’s a world that I’m very passionate about still putting on screen, because I still don’t think we’ve seen it in mainstream media as much as we should. 

And I remember coming into this thing and thinking, “Oh, my God, I found my world, I found my people I found my love” and then also realising that there was a lot of issues within that scene. And I always describe the black gay scene as a pool of beautifully broken people. And there’s so much love there, there’s so much community there. But then there’s so much almost like crap in a barrel kind of thing, people hurting each other, hurt people hurting people. And after a while, realising actually, this is not also who I am, because I think on that, on that, in that world, there are other roles that come and people try to play this role, play that role, and all these and you know…and I realised I’m not just that. I’m more than that. 

So that was the story of Passion Fruit, you see this character kind of come out of the hood, as you call it. So you know, “I’m not this bad boy, I don’t need to be this bad boy, I don’t need to, you know, fit into this gang culture and all of that”. To come in now and then saying, “Okay, I’m gay and going to…he goes to like, a white gay club, and  is like “why’s it all white people?” and then find the black gays being, then he goes through this journey of being like, really trying to fit into that. And then by the end of it, he.

Jet Moon  

(interrupted by loud intercom noise) Sorry, excuse me, I’m so sorry. No, I can’t answer now. I’m really sorry, Dior. That’s my, my building manager calling me to make sure I’m okay.

Dior Clarke  

No problem. Yeah, so by the time, by the end of this, he’s drained and the whole point of the play is…by the end of the play the character is like, “I don’t need to be this. I don’t need to be that. I am me and I am enough”. And it kind of ends up actually with them going to a drama school audition and the drama school audition kind of reject…he just tries to do a Romeo monologue and he’s tries to do it really poshly but the drama school basically says “Get out. Basically, we don’t want to see you”. And then the character turns around has this big speech about being seen and “I am enough” and all of this and then one of the teachers kind of sees that potential.

Kind of like what you’ve kind of said actually, like when turning around in that improv and just having this raw moment, and then seeing the spark and…the last line of the play that – what does the character say? – so yeah, it kind of goes full circle, ‘cus they say “tell us a bit about you” and it goes “I’m five years old in my mom’s bedroom” and that’s how the play starts with the character introducing “I’m five years old in my mom’s bedroom”. But yeah, that was Passion Fruit and Passion Fruit…it’s great. 

But even saying that, I feel like Passion Fruit had done really well, it got, it sold out, five-star review,  got five Black British Theatre nominations and still we’ve had trouble, a challenge, getting it up on another stage. Which, I mean, recently, we’ve gotten good news. But I mean, I had so many meetings with other venues and you’d think they would have snapped it up. But I think they’re still scared to put the story on a big stage and I honestly believe that. And I…I once again, I feel like I’ve seen…I’ve seen other shows, other black shows, black stories about….whether it’s about black straight men, whether it’s about black straight females – which there’s still a lack of may I say, and I’m someone that writes those stories as well and wants to push them – but I see them taking main stages but I’m like “Give a black gay man story a mainstage”. And not the black gay man story that you want to hear. But the real story, which is what Passion Fruit is. Once again, when I speak about them wanting to control the narrative, well, you’re not going to control Dior Clarke’s narrative on his writing, and I co-wrote Passion Fruit with a lady called Stephanie Martin. But you’re not gonna like, I still wonder…but one of the biggest people that has been really backing me and has been one of the guidance, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of Rikki Beadle-Blair. 

Jet Moon  

Yes

Dior Clarke  

But Rikki Beadle-Blair has been like my bureau, erm he has pushed me to continue, pushed me to…. he’s turned up to meetings with me, he’s guided me and kind of just said “Dior this is the journey” and you know, he’s been fighting this battle a long time, so keep going and I’m doing great things. And that’s what motivates me to continue. I will not stop!

Jet Moon  

I’m really glad you got that because he is like a very solid and powerful energy to have that kind of sitting there. And yeah.

Dior Clarke  

And there has been so many people that have that like thank… I am so grateful for The Glory that let us have their space for free to do the first ever version. I’m so grateful for the New Diorama and David, who was the artistic director. I think David’s going to be the artistic director of the Royal Court now. So grateful for people like them that gave me the platforms to share the story and tell it and it done great things. I mean, five Black…. my first ever play that means – well, Steph’s written other things but you know, my first ever play – to get five Black British, you know, nominations, to be nominated for Best Actor, we won two as well, the sound designer won and our supporting actor Juan Hayden. But I mean, five-star reviews, sold out, give us the main stage! I won’t stop until Passion Fruit gets the main stage, it has to. But it will…I think it would have been nice to get a mainstage sooner, should I say. But I think everything happens in its time. I believe it was some kind of patience, you just have to have patience, don’t you?

Jet Moon  

I mean, I always feel like it’s just a kind of weird thing because it’s, you know, I’ve got like many other friends who have their own different experiences of being a survivor and sometimes those things like can be a source of despair, but they also kind of the things that, in some ways, we’re really about and that we make, you know, that’s the reason that we actually get on with it and do what we’re doing.

Dior Clarke  

And you know what, saying that, having this conversation, maybe, maybe I kind of needed it right now. I’m realising that. Yeah, maybe that’s what we do and as much as you can sit there and dwell on there, being a survivor is allowed us to get what we get done. And a lot of people haven’t done as much as we’ve done, so to celebrate ourselves, rather than always being “I want this, I want that”, like we’re doing really well.

Jet Moon  

It’s a paradox, that’s for sure. And um…god bit of a….kind of lost slightly my thread, because I’m trying to catch a conversation but also looking at the questions I’ve written so I don’t miss something out. Yeah, I feel like, I’ll ask this question even though I feel like you’ve answered it before, but just because I think to me, it’s something that is very important. Like, I’m always I’m quite aware of this weird distinction when I talk about audiences, you know, there’s people you talked about that like being against the audience and I’ve also written things in that way. And it’s, um, you know, because people don’t know the worlds that are being written about or they’re in opposition in some way. But then there are those people that the story is kind of like reaching out to and who don’t see their story being told, and just how you feel that sense of emotional connection to those people, you know, that might… like unknown people who share your story.

Dior Clarke

I…the connection that I will say to them is, I feel it and I understand, but please, please don’t sit there and be disheartened or be upset. Write it; come together and create it because you can’t expect your story to be told, if you’re not…you just have to tell it, you know. And I get we want it – and people might see this as a bit controversial – but people um… you can’t expect people to tell your story that it’s not their story to be told. 

Yes, we do need more people in the power positions, so that when we do write our stories, they then can put it on. But you know what, you’re not…you’re nowhere close unless you wrote it yet. Let the battle (begin)…when you’ve written it and you’re ready to tell it and you know, reach out to people like myself, reach out to people like you know, that similar and form, find your people that support you, find your people that triumph you. When you get to that stage, then you can start the battle but write it. And that’s where I’m at, you know, you can.. you can be angry at the industry but one (tutor)..she taught me at my first drama school and she was a big part of that National Youth Theatre actually, and she said that you can either be in the in the industry and be angry at it, or be in it and change it; be in it to change it. 

And you know what, I’d rather be in it and just work on changing it because if I’m angry in it, then I just might as well go and find and go do something else. So my advice to them would be that honestly, just tell it; tell it, write it. Even if you want to start doing things like start a podcast talk about it, you know, you can start from little things like that, but don’t expect don’t expect other people to tell it. They can’t, it’s not their story to be told.

Jet Moon  

Are there other writers like that you think of that in some frame are survivor writers that you feel that have been important to you, like stuff that you’ve seen that has influenced you.

Dior Clarke  

Oh 100% Rikki Beadle-Blair: what a champion, what a survivor, what a celebrity! Like, amazing…yes, Rikki. Let me think of someone else, other writers that I love. I would say…I do really I um…I like Ryan Murphy. I just like the things he writes, I think it’s Ryan Murphy right that I’m talking about and he’s wrote like Hollywood, like, Dahmer, I think it’s the correct one. I think his writing is so brave. And he tells bold stories in a way that no one else does. His work really inspires me. Who else? I’d say Noel Clarke, a bit controversial with everything that’s gone on recently and so maybe we leave that out. But I mean, I I liked when he first wrote his first ever thing. I think he just wrote something and he didn’t care about the world he was telling, about how people are going to take it. He literally got a camera and he just put a screen on a world that wasn’t…wasn’t told. And it done really well. There’s other people in my head that I’m trying to think of….Tyler Perry! See a lot of them are American as well. But Tyler Perry, I love Tyler Perry. I think Tyler Perry once again, he just really dived into a community in America and really raised black women as well. And once again, I don’t think he were trying to tell a story that someone like, he told the story he wanted to. I think there’s a…I don’t know if I’m right, but he wrote, I think he wrote a play and I think he put it up about 10 times, or maybe a bit less. And it wasn’t on the last time until people came and watched it. And then his career…so just surviving and keep…he didn’t stop. He didn’t say “Okay, I’m gonna write something else. I’m going to do this”. No, he knew what story he wanted to tell, you know, the character, he wanted to…And look, now he owns a big studio year later though and he can create whatever works he wants to create. That’s what comes to my mind at the moment as well as well being but maybe not. I do think he wrote, I don’t think he writes more directing ads, but just the character that he brings to life and what he represents. Lee Daniels, who wrote Empire. It was the first time I saw a gay black character that was actually just not the stereotype, like I talked about. He was a rapper, he was… there was femininity to him, there was masculinity to him. No one else…there’s no one else that comes on my head right now.

Jet Moon  

Yeah. You use the word controversial. And, I mean, I think it’s, maybe it’s just like a phrase, you know, the way that you name things because I think that when you say controversial, I’m like, “Oh, well, I think it’s completely valid”. You know and I wonder like, for me, when often when I’m writing, I have the…sometimes I have like the criticism of I or I imagine of my community in my head, you know, like, in art gallery. And, um, I wonder if, if you have that, and you also connect, you know, in the way where you talk about that experience of that woman talking about watching Batty Boy with her son, if anything like that draws you through in your writing?

Dior Clarke  

As in how my community is going to take it?

Jet Moon  

I suppose like for me, I always have like the criticism, that is, I have to get past it to in order to get the words out. But sometimes what can help me also is that sense of knowing that there are other people who want the story.

Dior Clarke  

Yeah, no, 100% I think I think I’ve gone past that stage. Now. I maybe I had that in the beginning stages. Like I said, I remember the stage of…before Batty Boy was about to air that there. But…and you always do actually, you have it in your head, especially Passion Fruit, where it is so much about families, so I write about…how is my mother going to come and take seeing herself and things like that. But within saying that I’ve got…I know it’s going to be good for them. So as much as I know that you can add the voices of the community that might have this thought and that … honestly don’t care. Does that sound harsh? I don’t care anymore! But I don’t…and the reason why I don’t care is because what I’m writing is the truth. 

So just because a lot of art, and this can go to a lot of different cultures, we have the you know, the I call it the “sweep under the carpet”, “sweeping under the carpet”. Well, I’m not sweeping it under carpet I’m  sweeping it all out. And you can’t be angry because everything I’m saying is true. So I’m not gonna…. I won’t be silent. But also, I’m not writing from a place of “I’m going to teach you, I’m going to teach you” or ‘I’m going to force the message on you.’ I’m just literally showing the truth. here’s the truth, here’s a picture and take it how you take it. There’s no message on it. There’s no… I’m not trying to make you…and by the end of it, I’m not trying to ingrain something in you or make you believe something. I’m literally showing you the raw truth and I think a lot of artists get still scared to do that. So they…I tried….not scared to do it but I think that either trying to give a message of what they what they want the outcome to be or they’re just scared to show the raw truth of certain things. Not everything but certain things.

Jet Moon  

Yeah, when you spoke about your mum, I suppose I had this real sense when you said “Ah, but I felt…I was worried about maybe what she’d think but then I thought it’d be good for her” and I had this real sense of like, ‘oh, loving honesty.’

Dior Clarke  

Yeah. It’s like I see all my work as – and I think all my work will always be there – whatever it’s about it’s always a love letter. To all the characters in it, to all the people in it and, and always to the people. Like it’s a big love letter. So you know, I could…you know that I could write a story and within the story there could be….maybe there’s someone that’s quite abusive in the story. And when I’m writing about that character, I’m not writing that character from a place of hate, I’m putting that character, I’m also showing all the different layers of that character. So I’m showing the love, I’m showing the struggle, I’m showing the abuse…that people can come and that people that may be like that character can come and see themselves and take it in, not feel judged, but also be touched by it. And that, that’s just an example, if that makes sense. And that’s how I always see my work.

Jet Moon  

Makes total sense. But it sounds like so actually really complex and quite a bloody hard thing to do to write a layered character in that way. I’m just thinking, kind of come to the end my questions mostly where I just really…I know that you have talked about this show that we’re not going to, we’re going to take out because you know, it’s still in the process …But um, is there anything else  that you’re working on, you know, that you want to mention? Oh cus you say, “Oh, I’ve got all these projects going on”, I was like, “Oh”.

Dior Clarke  

We can mention that um when it comes to Passion Fruit, we can say that Passion Fruit will be returning. And it’s going to be returning to we can say a great venue. You can say Passion Fruit will be returning to a great venue. Should we say tour? Well we can say tour it might….even if it doesn’t turn out to be tour, but yeah, Passion Fruit will be returning and we’ve had a bigger venue and it will be touring. I’m currently writing…another project that I’m writing got commissioned for a small week at Soho, just to do a bit start of development of it. I’m writing with once again, I co- wrote with – her name’s Stephanie Martin she’s a lovely, lovely, lovely lady – and we’ve just turned out to be like writing partners, we can’t leave each other alone. So me and her are writing a few projects at the moment. So we’re writing a play called House of Silk. And House of Silk is based on…how can I put it? It is based on a group of young people living in a hostel in London, and I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of Stonewall housing. But I lived in Stonewall housing for a bit so it’s kind of mixing that. And yeah, so it’s…and I don’t think can say too much it’s pretty much about, a group of people living in, young people in London. Once again, we love…I always love to write about urban London, but they’re living in a Stonewall hostel and…I don’t want to give away too much…they love dancing. And maybe the saying, ‘what goes up, must go down’. Yeah, but it’s that. I don’t give away too much. But that’s gonna…. I think that’s going to be explosive. We’re also writing another thing called This Love Isn’t Taught. The play is called This Love Isn’t Taught. And that’s about two black men and it’s going to be set in one location and we just see them go on like a night of romance. But the whole idea is that from both cultures that there from, that they find it very hard to kind of navigate this love because it’s not taught.

Jet Moon  

It’s a beautiful title. It’s very evocative.

Dior Clarke  

Each thing that we’re writing as well. So for instance, House of Silk, Passion Fruit, This Love Isn’t Taught, we’ve got our stage versions and our TV versions, because TV is my main goal, it always has been. Is there anything else that we’re writing? There’s one more thing that we’re writing…we might be right in. And it’s called The Prince…kind of like a black gay Fleabag. And personally…that’s the projects I’m doing with Steph. 

Personally I’ve, I’ve set myself a goal to write a project on my own. Because I think I just love co-writing and I love doing it, I feel comfortable. And I think when you find a partner that you do well with, it’s nice, it’s not lonely. It’s…. you know, when you get writer’s blocks, you can bounce off of each other. But there’s a project there’s two projects that I’m writing. One, and one of them is called ‘The Toughest Soldiers’. And it’s based on five black women. And I just feel like we….and I don’t really….I haven’t seen that story in London yet in the UK. I really want to put those women on stage people like my mom, people like my aunty, people like my grandma, I want to tell their stories. And yeah, that’s my project that I’ll be writing on and I’m just going to be writing that as my feature film. I’m not going to do it as a play or anything. So there’s lots of things going on, I’ve got myself busy, my head’s a bit all over the place. I’m trying but there’s certain ones that we’re focusing on. But I think the one…the main ones we’re focusing on at the moment is This Love Isn’t Taught, House of Silk and Passion Fruit because that’s our baby. And the other ones are just going to fall into place so yeah, we’re writing, there’s lots of things happening.

Jet Moon  

Oh, all power to you. I mean, bloody hell you’re really pouring out the work it’s amazing. And I love seeing your success you know, just through social media and just really enjoy, y’know, everything that you’re doing so..

Dior Clarke

Thank you for wanting to speak to me as well.

Jet Moon

Well yeah y’know you bring a lot to yeah. Oh, I hope that you’ve got um…catch your agent and have great news from them.

Dior Clarke  

Hopefully he’s like “You got the job! Yay!” Most of these have been telling me that I’ve got deadline due tomorrow. This stuff takes…they never give you any time, do they? A lot of times it’s like tomorrow. But you know what, this year has been a good year actually. Just for some reason I keep getting commercials this year, I don’t know why. But I’m grateful for it. The money’s good, but I just keep getting commercials. I’m like, you know what there was a time I wasn’t getting commercials. So next, it will be feature films and TV series that’s what I’m putting in the universe.

Jet Moon  

Yeah, do it. I mean, it just it sounds fucking amazing. All right, I’m gonna let you go and get on with things.